Flame roll out problem with Williamson gas furnace. For Turtle

[derek]

Talk about sticking my foot in it!! I think they really misunderstood where I was coming from on this. Thanks for offering to help on this. Can you give me any pointers on what to check.

Thanks Derek

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

When you come here for to talk about hvac repair it is welcomed for a bunch of the hvac group will come over here and answer when they will not at alt.hvac .

It sounds like you have a very simple problem of lack of air supply to the furnace or a restriction of the vent pipe to roof. Before I can give you a good answer. You will have to give me a Model and serial number of the furnace for me to know what furnace I'm dealing with. You need a good air supply to come into the furnace area from out doors and a very good supply opening to let the burnt vapors out to the outter doors. When you get a sometime roll out, you have a problem with this. It is very windy here in Louisiana and i would say it is very windy in Fla. and I will say this because of it being windy in Fla.. Now there is one that could be is if it is windy out doors, your roof vent cap or pipe is not mounted high enough to not have a down draft to blow the flames out of the fire chamber and burn the wires. Still this is concidered as a air supply problem.

Now they do have a burn fuse used for roll out $.98 found at any appliance parts houses and is used on all electic heater and even toasters. Put this fuse in the

24 volt supply voltage to the gas valve and it will cut it off before it has time to burn the wires. Now you can go to a Goodman / Amana supply house and get a roll out flame button for about $15.00 and it will have a reset button on it to reset it evertime it trips.

Post the Model & Serial number and also the brand name if possible. I can go by model number but sometime it's hard to tell on old models.

You have a simple Air supply problem.

TURTLE

[derek]

Hi Turtle its a tempomatic model#1117-07-4 Style 131 ser# 7036777

Thanks again Derek

[Zypher]

Derek;

It is likely the "click" you're hearing may be the "fan control" bringing on the fan after the burners have been on awhile [normal.] But, if you have left the blower door off, upside down in place, or even just open a little bit [after changing your filter], you may have a condition where the blower is 'sucking' all of the available air from the equipment closet [including bringing any available fumes down the flu vent through the cold air diverter]. This causes the flames to leave their respective home in the burner compartment and come out. Sometimes [actually often] the cabinet is starved for oxygen and the flames will 'roll' characterist having a 'whomp' delayed ignition sound....

1) Make sure the furnace cabinet is sealed from the base by checking with a flash light. [Remove the filter after opening the blower compartment, pass the flashlight under the base and see if you notice any light coming through any cracks in the floor base or where the furnace meets the floor base.

2) Make sure any combustion air inlet screens above and below the appliance are clear of any insulation [there will be one located in the ceiling above the furnace and one either in the wall close to the bottom of the furnace or on the base with a metal enclosure going through to the crawl space if you have one.] If they appear obstructed, clean them out.

3) Be sure the blower door is on the furnace compartment tight and correct. Look for writing on the door to help you determine if the blower door is facing the correct direction. There should not be any air leakage between the door and blower compartment.

These suggestions are indicative of ALL furnace installation(s) in a closet and are not 'brand specific' except for those that have "direct vent" or "high efficiency" style appliance.

4) Call your local gas company and see if they'll send a APR [appliance inspection] person for free - he'll give you a good inspection, [and won't try to sell you something]and let you know if you need to call your friendly local HVAC professional to check it.

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

I don't know that brand well and can't tell the type system it has as to having a vent fan blower or just gravity to pull the flames through the fire chamber.

I need to know if it has a vent fan on the fire chamber or not ?

Now Zypher did say about you got to have the blower door on it tight or you can pull the flame out of the fire chamber by just having a little crack in it. Check this out.

Now another thing here. Check to see if the burners are not clogged up and this will let the flame roll out after a little time of running with ditry burners.

TURTLE

[derek]

Hi Turtle I got up in the attic and checked the air intake and it was wide open. I could look down the pipe into the closet. I got up on the roof and checked the exhaust and everything looked good as well. I can?t find any kind of exhaust fan on the unit. I posted some pictures here:

concerns me about this is why did a unit that operated for 30 years suddenly develop a roll out problem. There have only been Three things changed relating to the system. The thermostat, The main gas meter outside the house, and the drive belt on the blower. The drive belt was really old and slipping badly. I changed it out and I suppose I could reason it out that the increase in draw with the extra rpms could make a difference but that takes me back to why is it starting to happen now. The closet door holds the filter and there is no sealing between the filter frame and the furnace frame when it?s closed. I removed the filter from the door and there is a 1?? gap between the top of the filter frame and the furnace. If I understand you correctly on how this is supposed to operate then this can?t possibly be right.

I?m not going to do anything until I install the roll out protection I also have some high tenp insulation blanket that I use in my kilns and I?m going to protect the wires with that. I?m going to use an incremental approach to solving this Starting with improving the safety system and sealing up the filter frame to furnace connection. I?m not an idiot and I?m not out to kill my family. I?ve built two kilns that both run on gas and reach temps in excess of 1500 degrees for days at a time. They have redundant safety systems and are temperature controlled via microprocessor units that feed real time data to a central server in my shop. I?ve built two metal melting crucible furnaces that reach temps of 2500 degrees for melting bronze. I know you?ve taken some flack for helping me on this and I really appreciate your help. The quality of service technicians and tradesmen in all industries including mine has diminished over the years for various reasons and has made me into the do it myself person that I am. Also I?m really broke right now! There?s a difference between being cheap and being poor. Thanks Derek

[Gary R. Lloyd]

As I understand it, the rollout occurred when the gas valve shut down. Something to check would be the pressure coming from the new gas meter to the furnace. Excessive inlet pressure can sometimes overwhelm the gas valve. Max inlet pressure varies with the valve model and is often marked on the valve, but generally it should be 5-10" WC for a residential gas valve.

Gary R. Lloyd CMS HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software

[derek]

Could it be this simple I looked carefully at the panels and noticed that the one on top was not covering the exhaust completely. I then noticed that they are interchangeable. It?s possible that when I had the unit inspected before we bought the house (I wasn?t here) they mixed up the panels. With the long one on the bottom there isn?t nearly the gap for air intake as with the short panel. Hmmmm. Derek

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

You just fixed it for in the picture if that is they way you have it. You will starve the burners for air by cutting off the air supply to it. The Doors was your problem in the beginning. Get the Door right and it will not burn up the burner area.

TURTLE

[Zypher]

Derek;

After looking at your photo's [quite helpful]

1) The filter in the door is a 'pleated filter' and could be more restrictive to air flow causing your furnace blower to suck from other area's.

2) The filter housing in the door doesn't appear to seal well. I'm curious about the white panel board on the door. Was that there when you bought the house? It seems it prevents the door from sealing against the framing and might cause a slight gap at the top of the filter just below the burner area. This would cause a suction and bring the flames out. [Today code doesn't allow for the return to be drawn through a door like the one you have.]

3) I see there's very little clearance on the sides of your furnace, not allowing for lower combustion as required by code.

4) Since you replaced the blower belt, you may have increased your chance for the problem to become more evident.

5) The furnace has to be on the high side of 35 years old. Replace it with a newer high efficiency model, and you will eliminate the possible hazards to your family. The newer furnace will be smaller, thus allowing for code corrections.

6) If I bought that house, I would have replaced that furnace yesterday.

[derek]

Thanks everyone for all your help on this. You guys are a credit to your industry and if the techs that came to my house had this kind of knowledge and attitude I probably wouldn?t have had to go through this. But I do know an awful lot more about furnaces now. I?m still going to install the roll out switch and start saving the dough to get a new unit. Thanks again Derek

[Bubba]

hehe. Too funny. Lloyd gives out gas pressure info (10"WC) that could be confused by the 3.5" WC on the outlet side. I could just see this guy cranking up his outlet pressure trying to reach 10"WC. Remember, this is a guy that puts a door panel in the wrong place and starves the burner for air. Then Zypher starts guessing at everything then tells him he needs a new furnace. That freakin Williamson will probably be there another 35 years. Those have heat exchangers made like a tank. This, for a guy that didnt need to spend a penny and only needed to put the door on properly. Although that new belt, without checking amperage draw, may burn up your motor now. Im not trying to chew on your asses (Lloyd or Zypher) but you've gotta realize that you have no way of knowing what the poster is or isnt capable of. Something as simple as a door on wrong can kill. Its going to get someone hurt. Derek, just remember, there are rocket scientists and engineers out there and I wouldnt dare let them near my furnace. Your kiln building means nothing in the hvac world. Two completly different animals clip, clomp, clomp (stepping down off the soap box) Bubba

[Gary R. Lloyd]

As I see it, he was clever enough to figure out the door thing. I don't think I have misjudged his capabilities at all.

But why criticize in here? This is alt.home.repair, Advice is free, and worth every penny.

Gary R. Lloyd CMS HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software