I didn't read the other messages as this message string was getting long but when I was on the home hunt 6 months ago, my electrician uncle-in-law and electrician father-in-law warned me not to buy a home with a Federal Pacific breaker panel. I was told that the problem is in the quality of wiring used in the panel box and the fact that it has caused many electrical fires in homes. Pretty scary thought when you think about it.
If you are going to make improvements anyway, I would look into changing out your electrical panel and any potentially faulty wiring leading to and leaving your electrical panel.
You will pay $800 to $1400 depending on labor costs in your neighborhood, inspection fees, and cost of permits. The parts cost the same: ~$250 retail for the basic "kit" (200-amp box plus an assortment of 16 or so common breakers). You can price the "kit" at HD or Loews.
My son and I replaced a 200-amp service at my place and, a week later, repeated the process at his home.
We were quoted $1200 (each) by a commercial electrical contractor. In our jurisdiction (Houston) neither a permit nor inspection is required, so we were able to save about $900 apiece by spending Saturday afternoon on the project. [In addition to the "kit" expense, there's always something piddly that the contractor will have on his truck: a bit of wire, a funny coupling, an extra ground lug, something.]
It takes two people about five hours to do the job.
I few years ago I replaced our 1967 Fed Pacific 100A panel with a Square D "Q0" series with an upgrade to 200A service. I did the work myself and it ran around $500 (including the local permit and inspection). I live in central Ohio (Westerville) any their codes allow the homeowner to do the work on their own house. A neighbor contracted basically the same work in their house to an electrician and it was about $1,200. In both cases is was essentially a swap out of the panel and re-attaching the existing circuits the new panel.
By the way, in no way am I suggesting that having a pro do the work is a waste or anything. I have some experience (nothing this big before, though) and did a lot of research and felt I could do the work. My neighbor didn't feel comfortable taking something like that and to him the cost was reasonable (the pro also did the work in about 4 hours, my job took all day..)
Reliance Electric bought FPE and discovered that FPE fraudulently supplied test information to UL. UL then delisted most of the FPE line. Reliance Electric sued the seller of FPE and setteled for about 43 million dollars to cover future liability. I believe there is currently a class action law suit in New Jersey. The problem probably covers the
1965-1980 time period although the current Canadian manufacturer won't say what changes have been made to the line.
The link from dpb at
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a lot of information of FPE, much of it derived from the investigation by the Consumer Product Safety Commission. It includes information on the limited testing done for the CPSC. Two pole breakers may not trip (can jam and never trip) if the current on both poles is not the same (like ground fault). (Service disconnect size breakers were not tested.) Another problem - single pole breakers may never trip at
135% of rating. Also bus failures which cannot be seen as they are developing without panel disassembly.
One reason the CPSC investigation was dropped was the high cost of testing required to allow regulatory action vs. the size of the CPSC funding. This was probably also the start of the Reagan years which were not favorable to regulation. And perhaps most important, the CPSC had tried to regulate aluminum wire and in the predictable industry lawsuit the court ruled aluminum wire was not a consumer item and thus could not be regulated by the CPSC. Circuit breakers would probably have also not been under the CPSC.
Another source:
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additional problems with FPE panels, including the bus problems referred to by Pete C.
The problem with Federal Pacific in the US is that of dual
20A breakers getting into a fail-to-trip mode and caused major fires.
The lawsuits essentially bankrupted them. The remnants of the company were bought out by Schneider Electric in Canada and sell under the name Federal Pioneer. Schneider is a pretty well respected company, and does a lot more than Federal Pioneer.
These breakers had to be certified by CSA (on the whole slightly more stringent than UL) before sold in Canada - CSA or explicitly named equivalent approval is a legal requirement here.
They're also certified by ULC (UL Canada), which is more or less exactly equivalent to UL.
Approximately two years worth of Schneider-made Federal Pioneer _single_ 15A breakers were recalled several years back. [I _think_ this was Schneider-initiated.]
Manufacturing dates around 1998 if I recall correctly. The inspect-ny (and Schneider's) web site has a copy of the recall notice.
As I understand, no fires/injuries have resulted from the defective
15A breakers, and there's no indication that Federal Pioneer breakers/panels are a problem otherwise.
My experience (several full panels worth) has been that Federal Pioneer breakers are just fine. That can't be said of Square D Homeline (over the past 10 years, 3 of 4 Homeline breakers in the pony panel under my cooktop have fried. We hates them, we really do.).
If your Federal Pacific (US) _panel_ is in good shape, rather than replacing it, I'd consider net/mail-ordering some replacement dual
20As from a Schneider distributor or retailer, and not worrying about it anymore. Current Schneider production in 15A singles is fine, and you can still get free replacements for the recalled
15A single breaker (tho, they're unlikely to be found in US FP panels).
There are areas here where the electricians will use _only_ Federal Pioneer, and will even refuse to replace an existing Federal Pioneer panel with something else, despite the money they'd make.
[My SIL had an opportunity to swap out a panel essentially free to her to use something else, but the electrician, a good one, said "what the hell for? Nobody around here uses anything else, and we never have any problems with them.". Talked himself out of about $1200 ;-)]
Actually, it is quite viable. While "Federal Pacific" "legacy replacements" in the US are quite expensive, "Federal Pioneer" in Canada is no more expensive than any other breaker, and cheaper than many [+].
If you live near the border, or find a mail/Internet order source, it's quite doable.
The Federal Pioneer breakers are fully approved to US standards.
[+] I think somebody's making a fortune shipping Federal Pioneer to the US and making a fortune off people who don't know any better.
Thanks for all the help gents! I had an electrician come out yesterday morning, for $60 an hour. He was done in less than three and did an incredible job. (had to cut drywall and plywood sheathing in my garage to make the new Square D box fit)
I went to Homedepot the night before and got hte box for $159 with 5 20 amp breakers and bought various other breakers to bring the total to $220 and change... I was exstatic.
Between the $220 for materials (bought it myself, took 5 minutes...and I got to chat with the fellas at the hardware store, always fun) and $180 for labor the total came to around $400! They quoted that it would cost $700, until I told them I'd buy my own materials.
I was worried after seeing your postings, and am so glad now I have a modern unit with plenty of expansion room... and it didn't even ding my remodel budget.
I'm curious as to whether the electrician installed two ground rods and bonded your interior metal piping as part of your upgrade? Did he get a permit for the work and have it inspected?
I was wondering too.... was the system as a whole upgraded, especially with the sensitivity to voltage variants of today's electronics? Plus, were they they propertly managed, insurance, permits, and inspections?
You might get what you pay for, but more than often I've seen people get less. :(
Yes, and typicaly they charge the customer fair retail value. The idea I have is when the customer doesn't get 'everything' the electrician can draw out the per hour rate by making additional trips to the store.
the company owner who has a pyroll insurance and all sorts of stuff to pay $$$$$$$$$$$$
The fellow down the street who used to work for a electrician and now makes some side cash money no overhead doing jobs like these $$ he knows how and can be safe mo overhead or income tax
Think harder! A lot of these people are retired professionals just looking to pick up some cash from time to time, some even just want to help neighbors and older people. Others may have a regular job but do their old profession to pick up a little cash from time to time.
Then there are a few that don't know what they are doing.
Having a license is no indication that the work will be good, and having no license is no indication that the work will be lousy.
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