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Thanks for getting me back in the discussion! I would like to submit that I'm for a cost-benefit analysis of many, most or all proposals. Sometimes others (you?) don't seem to care about the benefits I do care about.
OTOH, my dad's cars didn't have all that air pollution stuff on them, and getting at things, even with those horrible little French cars, was easier and for sure the mileage was better...
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Han
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The mileage was better because they were lighter and lower powered. They really stunk up the air too. (I've owned a few).
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On 12/30/2011 8:16 PM, Han wrote:

I owned 3 Renaults back in the early 1970's, they were loads of fun to tinker with. ^_^
TDD
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On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 22:25:09 -0600, The Daring Dufas

Peugeot 204 wagon (1967) i n Zambia - drove it across country frpom Livingstone to Mbereshi in the rainy season with 4 adults and half a ton of supplies. So rough you either drove under 30mph or over 50 - either crawl over the bumps or just hit about one in 10. You can guess which option I chose. Every hour or so it was out with the hammer and beat the beads of the rims back to a semblance of round. Thank God and Michelin for "airstops"
Renault 12 sedan (1973) - Rallyed 1978- 1980 Ontario Regional Navigational Rallye Series - fininished 4, 3, and 2, LOADS of fun, and never broke it on a rallye. (lost the muffler once). Lowest powered car on the series, and likely the longest suspension travel.
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On 12/31/2011 11:54 AM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I had two R-10's and a 16, The most fun was the 1967 R-10 with the 1108cc engine that I could pull by hand and carry it to a workbench. They were quirky funny little cars but I loved them. ^_^
TDD
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But then the losers of the c/b analysis ALWAYS drag out "how can you put a price on life or health or whatever".

I am not sure how much of the getting at things is directly related to pollution stuff and how much related to wanting to make sure the dealers stayed in business by engineering things to make shade tree mechanics much harder to do.
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wrote:

We'll discuss that again when we get to talk about end of life care ...

Well, I've tinkered a bit with the Fiats I owned in the early 70's, but after that my time became too precious ...
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Han
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Yep, although I would like to note at the outset that most of the umbrage over the last six months of life is skewed somewhat to my mind since it doesn't really account for the intensity of the spending. Makes sense that you are sickest just before you die.
When I was an EMT, I noted that a fair number of the people that died on me where relatively healthy until they weren't. WHile it was true that a lot of money was spent in the last 6 months of life, about 99% of that was spent in the last 6 hours. My wife's uncle is a good example. He was healthy as an Ox until a coronary artery finally closed. By the time they took him to the local hospital, got him sorta stabilized, shipped to Little Rock and worked on him until he died on the table they spent upwards of $60,000 (this was mi-80s). I haven't seen a study yet that teases out how much was "wasteful" or unneeded. Just saying they spend most of the money in the last 6 months of life tells me nothing except that people are the sickest just before they croak. Can I get a rousing "No, duh"?
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wrote:

I think it is definitely worthwhile to try to get someone "who was healthy as an Ox until " all the medical help he/she can get. But (hypothetically) should the old lady deep in her 80's who has been more and more sickly lately and now needs dialysis be a candidate for a kidney transplant?
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I would say that in our society, yeah probably. I have long said that the major reason we don't have a sensible healthcare system is because we, as a society, haven't come to any consensus on these kind of questions. And even when we start talking about it, it can't be civil for too long before the right starts talking about death squads and left starts deciding it is all a plot to do in minorities.
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wrote:

The only thing that's pretty sure is that you won't recognize the situation until it hits you in the face. And then you might have to make a decision that will take years before you're finlly at peace with it.
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Fiats are Italian - not French - but I had one of them too. A 1975 128 Sprt Coupe. Converted it to electric, using an aircraft generator and a drum switch/resistance/series-parallel speed controller. I was often asked about it's reliability and my answer was "not great, but a heck of a lot better than the Fiat" The car had 18000 miles on it when I converted it ( 1978?) and I scrapped it due, in part, to terminal chassis corrosion, in 1983?
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Since I spend considerable time going through cost/benefit analyses for energy-efficient lighting requirements involving the state of California, I don't agree with your comment above. It's the law in CA that any new legislative requirement involving energy efficiency meetk specific cost payback, energy efficiency and environmental goals. They're all on line so you can see for yourself. The NRDC and the ACEEE did similar analyses when they proposed and promoted the federal legislation which became law in 2007 with the support of the DOE.
Tomsic
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You have common sense, which is no longer common. I had high hopes for GWB, but was disappointed. I remember hearing that Mitt Romney was pushing socialized medicine when he was in Mass. Mormon or not, I don't have high hopes for him being conservative.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
Reasonable or not, refineries could have met them without the oxygenate requirement.
Laws may be unreasonable as air quality standards are revised at whim of EPA. Something satisfactory today may not be tomorrow.
I've yet to hear of a death certificate where the cause of death was exposure to ozone, second hand smoke, radon - you name it, but EPA says thousands of lives would be saved by tightening standards.
Hopefully, President Romney, will gut the EPA.
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On 12/28/2011 1:51 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

While having voted for Romney in the last primary, I have your concerns. I do like what Ann Coulter who supports him said, that while he may be a flip flopper, he's flopping in the Conservative direction.
Let's not forget, that Reagan was once a Democrat.
For that matter, so was I.
Comes with learning and maturity.
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I heard years ago (and agree with): If a man is not a liberal by the age 20, he has no heart. If he is not a conservative by age 40, he has no brain.
I've been through the process, and agree with that quote. I used to believe that welfare helped people. I used to believe that gun laws reduced crime. I used to belive that increasing taxes reduces the federal or local debt.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
While having voted for Romney in the last primary, I have your concerns. I do like what Ann Coulter who supports him said, that while he may be a flip flopper, he's flopping in the Conservative direction.
Let's not forget, that Reagan was once a Democrat.
For that matter, so was I.
Comes with learning and maturity.
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All those things are still valid (IMO!!!), but some governments are not properly dealing with the funds available.
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Han
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Han wrote:

The word "opnion" is defined as a strongly held belief not based on facts.
Actually none are valid. Here are the facts.
Current welfare programs are equivalent to giving a man a fish. The biggest reduction in welfare of recent times came from Hurricane Katrina where the fifth generation of welfare recipients were re-located to places like Salt Lake City or Billings, Montana. The common refrain from such evacuees was "You mean all I gots to do is stand here and make Slurpees? And I gets PAID for it? Damn, man, dat's cool."
By every measure, the liberalization of gun laws has reduced crime, or at least there is a strong relationship between gun ownership and crime reduction. Today, 49 states permit concealed carry (Illinois is the outlier). Crime continues to drop. Except in Chicago.
Virtually every right thinker holds - and can prove - that we do not have an insufficient taxing problem, we have an overly-abundant spending problem.
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wrote:

Every time someone flips, the next flop becomes that much easier. I don't trust Romney either (I voted for him last primary, too) and his flop doesn't convince me.

He learned the error of his ways. Are you convinced Romney has?

Oh, I believe Romney is mature enough. Maybe not honest enough (with himself, if no one else).
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On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 12:33:57 -0500, Frank

Not GUT it, but put a bridle on it and make it usefull. Regulations are required. Action is needed - but it needs to be EFFECTIVE action, and the regulations need to be reasonable and well thought out.
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