Electrical Wiring Repair Question

[harry manka]

An year ago, I extended the branch circuit from an outlet in my garage to outside the garage (into the open yard) to provide a couple of outlets to be able to use electrical power tools in the yard. I used outdoor type sealed boxes for the outlets, however I did not change the circuit breaker at the main panel to GFI type. I have regular breakers on ALL the branches in my house. Everything worked fine till the last week.

There was heavy rain last week and the outlet box in the yard got water into it. As a result (I think) the outlets in the yard and garage are not working (no juice). Curiously, the 2 outlets in the 2 bathrooms on the second floor are also not working. I don't know if this is just a coincidence and if the bathroom outlets are on the same branch as the garage/yeard outlets. Everything else in the house is working fine.

I opened the outlets and checked the wires for connections (they are OK) and any burnout (none) and checked for juice with electrical tester and found no juice. Then I checked the cable visually to see if any part of it has burned and it looks OK. I could not check the cable that is inside the walls. Then I tested all the breakers and they all are getting the juice (don't know if they are putting out the juice....how to I check that?).

Well...this is where I am stuck. I don't know which breaker is for the branch circuit for the garage and bathrooms and I don't know how to check for a defective breaker. No breaker was tripped off and they all seem to be mechanically working.

Can someone provide tips to me as to how I should go about diagnosing and repairing this problem short of getting an electrician? Thanks in advance.

Harry

[Greg]

Are you sure there isn't a GFCI receptacle in there somewhere?

[toller]

No offense, but if you don't know how to test if a breaker is hot, then you shouldn't be doing work like this. Really... it is about as basic as you can get. I am sure someone will tell you how to do it, but they shouldn't cause you need an electrician to check over whatever you have done.

BTW, not labeling your breaker box when it was working was your first mistake; not using a GFCI (assuming for the moment that you really aren't using one without knowing it) was your second mistake.

[John Gilmer]

Yep! That's what it looks like from here.

[HA HA Budys Here]

Actually, given his description it is a GFCI protected circuit. It was typical to wire bathroom outlets and garage and outdoor outlets on one single GFCI protected branch circuit.

Look for a tripped GFCI outlet in either the garage, basement, any bathroom or lavatory.

[Childfree Scott]

I would disconnect the line where you extended it and see if the problem goes away. If it does then you know for sure that it's the newer outdoor circuit. You said that it goes to more than one place then you should be able to reconnect the outdoor circuit and disconnect the outlets one at a time and leave it that way with one off long enough to find out if it's the bad one.

[Colbyt]

Carefully check your breakers in the box. Sometimes they don't look tripped and they are.

Then follow advice others have offered.

Colbyt

[Greg G]

OK. Other people have already told you that your knowledge, as of now, is not up to the task of electrical work. They're right. But I believe that intelligent people can learn new things. I've been doing a lot of that in 6 years of home ownership.

So let's start with something simple. Breakers don't generally flip their toggle switch to the OFF position when they trip. They move a little bit in that direction. The switch is indeed OFF, but the toggle looks like it's still on. You need to flip it to the OFF position and then back to ON to reset it.

Now a harder lesson.

The typical electrical work you might do as a homeowner isn't all that difficult to learn. Get a good book, ask an electrician friend to show you a few things and you'll probably be OK with simple jobs.

But the most important thing is to learn to avoid taking the easy way out. You needed an outlet so you found the nearest available electricity and daisy chained onto it. After the fact you're finding out that maybe you'd be sawing some 5/4 oak in the yard while a couple of 1500W hair dryers were running in your bathrooms.

My house was built in 1949. Electricity was a less integral part of life then, at least judging by the wiring in my house. The original wiring was all on four circuits and each one has a random assortment of lights and outlets from all over the house on it. I can cut the original builders a little slack though, as they probably could not foresee the explosion of electrical device use that would happen in the next 50 years.

But worse than the original installation are the numerous clumsy additions put in by handymen. I went to change a light fixture last spring and ended up with a full day's rewiring job. Someone had decided that it was perfectly OK to daisy chain off a light fixture in a 3" octagonal box to power two duplex outlets in TWO OTHER ROOMS. There were 4 BX cables meeting in this box, so it was packed solid with wire and wire nuts.

This was shortsighted and dangerous. For your sake, and for that of future owners, do the job right. It usually doesn't even require that much more work; just a little planning will suffice. I've added 8 circuits to the original 4, which means that pretty much all the heavy current items are on their own new circuits. The original wiring just handles the lights and minor items like clocks, the stereo, etc.

Greg G.

[Stormin Mormon]

I was thinking much the same.

[harry manka]

Update....

1. There are no GFCI receptacles anywhere in the house. No GFCI breakers either. One hair blower has test/reset buttons.

1. There are 18 branch circuits. 14 were identified/labeled by me before (but not the ones in garage and bathrooms).

2. The garage outlet and 3 bathroom outlets are not working. My guess is that they are on the same branch.

Now....I checked all 18 breakers and they all work. but none of the outlets in the garage and bath have electricity coming to them. I even checked the hot wires coming to them. I did not see any signs of burnout. Does this mean that the cable from the breaker to the first outlet has open/is burnt?

I can get electrician to fix this if I have to, but I like the challenge and the knowledge I end up getting by doing myself.

Harry

[HA HA Budys Here]

I have a feeling, especially if your home was built AFTER 1970-ish, you HAD a GFCI outlet as the first outlet in that garage/bathroom circuit.

Reason being, there would be no reason to put a garage outlet and ONLY bathroom outlets on one single circuit. Also check any outdoor outlet the GFCI might be there although that would be really stupid.

[John Grabowski]

It is possible that there is an outdoor receptacle on the same circuit that may contain the GFI.

The next step would be to open up the problem receptacles beginning with the one close to the electrical panel. Not only should you check the hot connections, but you should also check the neutrals as well. Tighten down all of the neutral terminal screws in the electrical panel.

How old is this house?

John Grabowski

[harry manka]

OK.....this seems to be a sensible consensus here. So I will be checking the house inside out for the presence of any GFCI outlet. Thanks all.

[harry manka]

John, the house was built around 1987-88 timeframe. It's fairly modern and well built house as my neighbors tell me that the builder was very good. Not many people say that about builders. I am not the original buyer.

I checked the entire house for any GFCI outlet/s and couldn't find any. No GFCI breakers either. I find that hard to believe. I had previously checked ALL non-working outlets (there are 4 of them- 1 each in upstairs bathrooms, 1 in the dressing room adjoining master bath and 1 in garage) and no outlet is getting electricity at live wires in those outlets. I did not check the neutrals but does it matter really! I mean if there is no electricity at live, then I don't expect it to be at neutral. ALL breakers have electricity at live wires....so basically I am at the end of my investigation. Is it possible that the cable is burnt inside the wall where I can't see? The thought sends chills up my spine. I would think the breaker would trip before something like that happens.

may be it's the time to call an electrician.....

Harry

[Rudy]

Didja check "outside" I have 2 GFI outlets out there. This is a new house so I dont know if they have any other outlets 'downstream' or not. In our last house, there was one in the laundry room that controlled much of the garage, two in the kitchen, another in the garage and also one outside on the patio that controlled other outlets inside.

When something went "off" it was a PITA to find which GFI had popped.

R

[John Grabowski]

The National Electrical Code at that time required GFI protection on bathroom, garage, basement, outdoor, and kitchen receptacles. The kitchen circuits are required to be separate 20 amp lines. The bathroom receptacle was not required at that time to be a separate 20 amp line as it is now. Unless your locality did not adopt or enforce the code, it's difficult to believe there is no GFI protection anywhere.

Assuming that you have already opened up each receptacle and checked for hot and neutral, your next step would be to open up all non working receptacles and check continuity between them. Disconnect the receptacles. Draw yourself a diagram and tag each wire to get a visual image of how the wiring is run. Determine which wires are supposed to be the feed from the circuit breaker panel. That should help you decide where you need to look next. If you don't have continuity between the panel and the first outlet, then your problem is somewhere in between. In that case you may have to open up some walls or just refeed the first outlet. Be careful. Since all of your circuit breakers are hot, you may find your mystery hot wire during your investigation.

It is possible that you may have a broken wire in the walls and a continuity test will help determine that. Disconnect all wires including the bare grounds and check for continuity on all conductors.

John Grabowski

[Thomas]

I am upgrading my bathrooms and have now an orphaned NM14 cable leading to an outdoor receptacle, which I upgraded to be a GFCI receptacle. Now I need to supply it with power from somewhere. I know that according to NEC 2002 I can't supply it from a circuit that supplies a bathroom (where it used draw power from). Are there any other restrictions/requirements regarding outdoor receptacles, or can I pretty much splice it on to an available cable from a 15 amp circuit (with a box of course)?

Thanks in advance,

Thomas

[RBM]

[newsgroups01REMOVEME]

When you said you upgraded your bathroom, did you upgrade it to a

20amp circuit? Plus, does this circuit supply only this bathroom?

If so, then you can fish out the 14awg, and pull in a new 12awg and you should be able to connect the outside box per, 2002 NEC 210.11(C)3 Exp 1.

No as usual, follow local codes, and allow only qualified personnel work on your house.

later,

tom @

[Playintennis5274]

add up the total amps your currently using on the circuit your planning to tie into, along w/ the amps your planning to use and if your unbder 15 i would go ahead.