Electrical wiring advice needed

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On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 6:13:02 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Wrong again. Outside is wet, whether it's in conduit or not. But you won't see this, because you have me blocked. You've got so many blocked, probably why you can't learn.
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wrote:

The main reason he can't learn is that he thinks he already knows everything.
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On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 7:09:08 AM UTC-5, Doug Miller wrote:

Watch it Doug. Pretty soon you'll be on his blocked list with me and he'll say you're a jerk. And I agree it's interesting that here he is arguing with gfretwell on NEC, yet I'm the one that's supposed to be a jerk. Go figure.
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Thanks DerbyDad. I meant to say "basement" throughout and not "garage".
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On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:35:26 -0800 (PST), Ivan Vegvary

I think we're going to have to start you in the Beginners Electrician class, if you don't know a basement from a garage.
See http://LearnATrade/Electrician/Class1/definitions
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On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 07:20:17 -0800 (PST), Ivan Vegvary

Use UF cable instead of Romex and you will not have any issues with it being used "outside" (the real problem with Romex in this case). There are no issues with using Romex in pipe (heat or otherwise) if it does not exceed the fill requirement but it can't be used outside.

The only reason for a switch is to reset the motion detector logic and the breaker will work for that. They do occasionally get turned on and won't turn off until you drop power for 10 seconds or so, usually from a short power hit.
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On Tue, 01 Mar 2016 10:59:14 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Exactly.
I have run romex thru conduit many times and it's totally safe and allowed by code. I dont think it would be possible to exceed the fill requrements. You'll probably never be able to get two runs of romex inside a 1/2" conduit.
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On Tue, 01 Mar 2016 10:59:14 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Although fwiw, I came across one light or one brand that, after a power interruption, would keep the light on all day and all night, and turn it off at dawn the next day. And go back to the setting it had. I wouldn't count on this, however and you still need the switch.
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On 03/01/2016 09:20 AM, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

I believe it's a misconception about no Romex in conduit... in some situations it's actually required. My house recently passed an electrical inspection and there was /some/ Romex in conduit:
National Electrical Code 2011 ARTICLE 334 Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cable: Types NM, NMC, and NMS II. Installation
334.15 Exposed Work. In exposed work, except as provided in 300.11(A), cable shall be installed as specified in 334.15(A) through (C).
(B) Protection from Physical Damage. Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, Type RTRC marked with the suffix -XW, or other approved means. Where passing through a floor, the cable shall be enclosed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, Type RTRC marked with the suffix -XW, or other approved means extending at least 150 mm (6 in.) above the floor. [ROP 7-94] Type NMC cable installed in shallow chases or grooves in masonry, concrete, or adobe shall be protected in accordance with the requirements in 300.4(F) and covered with plaster, adobe, or similar finish.
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On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 10:20:27 AM UTC-5, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

It's allowed as long as the fill requirements are met, ie the conduit is big enough for the cable used. But I think the outdoor location would require that it be rated for wet locations, which probably means you'd have to use direct burial type cable if you want to go that route.
If I do the change-over in an electrical box, it has to be accessible. Not doable in the to-be finished basement with tenant. I suppose an outside weather resistant box will be required.

If you change over, you can put an outdoor junction box where it exits from the wall. You'd probably want one there anyway even if it's to be able to pull the wire. In which case it's probably easier to switch to THWN wire for outside, use Romex for inside. That is how I would do it.

If you need or want one or more switches, it's up to you. It would certainly seem reasonable to have them. I'd out the switch inside though, but that may not be practical with how you're planning to run it. Reasons for switch is convenience when changing bulbs, if it gets stuck on and needs to be reset. Also many of the motion lights have a feature where you can force it on by turning the switch off, then back on after a couple seconds.
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On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 07:20:17 -0800 (PST), Ivan Vegvary

Does one of these replace the front door light. Most people want to be able to turn that light on so it stays on, when company is expected. Most motion detector outside lights allow one to choose between on, off, and automatic by use of a wall switch.**

Or conceivably, one. Though it would take planning for that to work, and even then it woudl be hard. Because I think some lights are turned on by turning them on/off/on and others seem to work in the opposite way, although right now I can't figure out what the opposite way woudl be. All I know is I have lots of trouble getting one light at a time to stay on, and it would be harder with 3, especially if I could only see one of them.

Unless it's against code to put a light on a receptacle circuit, I see no reason you couldn't add each light to a circuit near by. That's what I did with the floods for my back yard. There's a receptacle below the bedroom window, on the second floor, in the middle horizontally. I just went up a foot, cut an opening for a box for the switch, and drilled a little hole from its bos through the outside wall and screwed the floods to a box on the wall. No conduit, no time spent running conduit.
For the side of the house, I have a set of floods where the Romex goes through the thin attic siding, along the rafters to the circuit that goes to the attic. I also have the attic fan and attic ceiling light on the same circuit. I don't see why this would be a violation. I certainly didn't want to run 2 or 3 circuits to the attic when the total load is well under 20 amps. No conduit to run, no time running conduit.
In the front, I replaced the front door lamp with a motion detector one. Some are designed to stay on all night at half brightness, for people whose neighbors insist they should participate in Lights On. But I didn't get this because I thought the other brand was prettier.

**A friend bought a house with a pair of floodlights at each corner of the house. It has a central switch, inside the front door coat closet, to turn on all the lights at once. The wife of the previous owner wanted it. (It also had a remote control and a home-designed receiver and relays to turn the lights on from the car, when coming home at night. My friend, cleaning up when he first moved in, ripped the receiver out without knowing what it was for, and threw it away. First I replaced it with an unrate really cheap remote control receiver that seemed to burn up because of the load. The vendor sent me another one for free, and the same thing happened to it. Then I bought a universal receiver meant for garage doors at Sears, and installed that. I was able to turn the lights on from 20 feet on the OTHER side of the street they live on. I thought everything was fixed, but it's not working now and he mumbled when I asked why and changed the subject.
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On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 11:26:55 AM UTC-5, Micky wrote:

That's a good point. A switch run off a nearby circuit might be easier and certainly worth considering.
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On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 07:20:17 -0800 (PST), Ivan Vegvary

well below the rated ampacity for the romex and only one run in the conduit it is a non-issue and totally legal. Just make sure you have the proper bushings/clamps where the wire enters the conduit
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On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 12:22:44 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

urface, either pvc or emt conduit. No aesthetic issues due to location.

(overheating??). If I do the change-over in an electrical box, it has to be accessible. Not doable in the to-be finished basement with tenant. I s uppose an outside weather resistant box will be required.

You can't run romex in wet locations, even inside a conduit. Of course you have me blocked, so feel free to keep posting BS.
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That's nonsense. Romex is permitted inside conduit; in fact, under some circumstances (e.g. passing through a floor), the Code *requires* it to be in conduit.
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Hi Ivan,

Romex is not supposed to be run in conduit, but it is allowed in cases where "physical protection" is needed.
In your case, the bigger problem is running the Romex in outdoor conduit. Romex is not rated for outdoor use (it has a paper filler).
I would use Romex indoors to a junction box, then transition to individual wires inside the conduit to your lights.

You could use a standard electrical box and just put a blank cover plate on it. If it's mounted inside the wall, it wouldn't look any different than any other outlet or switch in the finished space.

Yes, you could mount a junction box on the outside of the house and bring the Romex through an opening in the back to make the transition in the box. You would just need to be sure to secure the cable before it enters the box, and seal well behind and around the box with caulking so water can't get in.

You already need the junction box, so you might as well install a switch. You never know if someone might want to turn off the lights for some reason (such as star gazing, or some other activity where you don't want the lights on).
Just make sure to use a weather rated switch cover if you mount the box outdoors.
I would put all three lights on one switch. I don't see any reason to have three separate switches.
Good luck,
Anthony Watson www.watsondiy.com www.mountainsoftware.com
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On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 11:51:44 AM UTC-5, HerHusband wrote:

It's perfectly permissible to run romex in conduit, even where no physical protection is needed.

Agree, that's how I would probably do it too, based on what we know.

That only works if the one box is in a suitable location for the switch, which seems unlikely. But in most cases having a switch sure would seem to be desirable.
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On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 12:23:35 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:

That's why I suggested a couple of 3 way switches, one at each end of the long walkway. They would be especially useful when they might want the lights on continuously, which most motion sensor allow for with a rapid on-off-on, etc. cycle of the switch.
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213.239.209.88:

Complete nonsense. Code permits Romex to be run in conduit in any location where it can be run alone. And in locations where protection from physical damage is needed, conduit isn't simply "allowed" -- it's *required*.
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Interesting, I learned something new tonight.
That was easy to confirm with a bit of research, but funny how misinformation like that becomes "common knowledge". Another reminder not to believe everything you read online! :)
In any case, Romex is not allowed in wet locations, so it still wouldn't be appropriate for outdoor conduit runs.
From a practical standpoint, if the conduit has any bends it will be a lot easier to pull individual wires than a stiff Romex cable.
Anthony Watson www.watsondiy.com www.mountainsoftware.com
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