Electrical service - 240v line

[William.Deans]

Greetings Rick,

While I have never seen a non-switched split-wired kitchen receptacle within the US I understand that they are the norm in Canada. In Canada the kitchen receptacles would use a 240V breaker and therefore one would be on Pole A and the other on Pole B.

What PaPaPeng suggests is not too far out of the question under these circumstances. PaPaPeng simply didn't know the circumstances so he made some up. He went a little too far filling in the blanks and he overgeneralized wiring based on his one reference implimentation.

To be very clear I am NOT saying that PaPaPeng suggestion is the way to go -- only that it isn't the product of a raving lunatic's mind and could almost work under special circumstances likely NOT what the OP will encounter in his home.

The OP is probably not in Canada and PaPaPeng does not appear to have all the information but what he suggests is not too far out of the question under these circumstances.

Hope this helps, William

[William.Deans]

Greetings Doug,

Millions of 240V 200W or less houshold appliances are purchased (even by Americans) every year. The AC adapter for the laptop that I am writing this very post on accepts input from 100-240V at 50/60Hz at

140W. Unlike my laptop, my PAL VCR REQUIRES a 240V and I doubt it uses more than 200W. Not every appliance from oversees can run on 60Hz but many can.

Hope this helps, William

[trader4]

"The knick knacks people (many immigrants) bring over such as cake mixers, juicers, entertainment systems (TVs, VCRs, stereo equipment) ,

If you're trying to use a foreign TV or VCR in the US, the voltage issue is the least of your problems...

[PaPaPeng]

The main power supply that goes into you breaker box is 240 Vac. The cable has four conductors - black, red, white and ground. The black and the red conductors are each connected to its own common bar that you insert your breakers to. The two banks of breakers correspond to the two bars. Each bar measures 115V against the common neutral (white). If you measure across the two bars (Black and Red) you will get 240 Vac.

Now go take a look at your table saw motor. All the motors I have come across have an option to wire it for 115V or for 240V, single phase. Whether it is wired for 115 V or 240 V the power cord that comes out of the motor is pretty ordinary and has only three conductors. So how do you get 240 V to flow through a 3 conductor cord? The answer is the neutral (white) is not used. One pole of the motor is connected to the black wire and the other pole to the red wire. Ground is ground. That's how my garage workshop is set up for

115 Vac and for 240 Vac through its own sub panel. Its humming along fine after >20 years. For safety the 240 V plug has both pins horizontal so that an ordinary 115 V plug cannot be inserted into it. These plugs and receptacles are available from any hardware shop.

Major 240 Vac household appliances like stoves, ovens and dryers use specific four conductor cables and 4 conductor receptacles. Those are mandated by code and come from the manufacturers that way. Why do anything different anyway.

Only KITCHEN receptacles are connected to a paired 115 V breaker in the breaker box. The paired breaker straddles the two bars on the breaker box. If you measure the voltage across the wire that comes out each breaker you should get 240 V. Therefore you can rewire a KITCHEN outlet to give 240 V.

[jeffc]

Actually the situation is the opposite. I want a balanced line for my pretentious, snobbis audiophile dedicated sound room. But I'm really not keen on buying amplifiers specially keyed for this puropse, although they do sell them. What I'd prefer is to have the balanced line, but to use it with regular 120v audio gear. What I might actually want is a step *down* transformer. What do you think?

[William.Deans]

Greetings,

I prefer to view videos originally shot in PAL video in PAL format. The NTSC disc would involve both frame-rate conversion and a slight lowering of picture resolution. It isn't a problem -- it's a better product.

Hope this helps, William

PS: Would you throw out all your home videos if you moved abroad?

[jeffc]

Ya gotta start somewhere gents. In fact I've learned to do many DIY things, and have even gone on to do them professionally. However, since I'm having this addition built by a builder, I won't bother to learn more than I need to know to make sure the job is done right.

[jeffc]

I did know that of course. I do have a clothes dryer plugged (and hey, at least I installed the 240v cord on that one!) I wasn't clear in my original question, and anyway I like things explained like I'm a total beginner even if I know 50% of the answer already. What I'm ultimately looking for here is not necessarily 240v - actually I'd like to avoid 240v if possible. I'm looking for a balanced line. Now I know the line at the pole is 240v balanced. What I didn't know is if the line at the house was the same, but I assumed it was. I wasn't sure if I was going to have to make a request to the electric company to get that balanced power directly. So if anyone could tell me the easiest way to get a balanced line, even if I have to step down the 240 to 12)?

[Joseph Meehan]

Jeff, this was in no way intended as a lack of respect for you.

It was intended to indicate that "All you need to do is.." may not be sufficient instructions for someone who may not understand enough to fill in the parts that were not listed. Handling electricity and wiring can be dangerous, if not done right. Even if it is done in a way that would logically seem safe, it might not be according to code and if the next person working on it does not know that, they could be injured making an assumption (which of course they should never do).

I do suggest that if you want to take on this job and make any changes to your wiring, that you consider beginning with a good book on wiring. Even if we were to give you step by step instructions for a normal situation, there is always that chance that you are up against something not according to code (see paragraph above) and that could get you killed. The full book better covers those things and other unexpected things that you don't see yet.

[Rick]

receptacle

They're out there in the US, too-guess it depends on the electricians and inspectors preference. Of course they have to be on opposite poles.

these

Like just disconnecting the neutral and taping it up? Fine, if there are no recepticals downstream...

Making up circumstances is not the best thing to do when offering advice on electrical wiring to someone who doens't have basic skills...

[Jake]

Jeff,

You only need a isolation transformer, I think. Try Hammond Power Solutions.

Jake

[Doug Miller]

Yes, it is. As I noted in another post, it's dangerous, it violates Code, and there's a coin-toss probability that it won't work anyway.

Yeah, that's always a good idea when giving electrical advice...

Somewhat of an understatement. :-)

Perhaps not, but it certainly *is* the product of someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

So why are you defending it?

Yes, it is "too far out of the question." It absolutely *is* a Code violation. It absolutely *is* dangerous. It absolutely has only a 50% probability of working at all IF the wiring is as he suggests - which, in the US, is vanishingly unlikely.

[Doug Miller]

But you specifically referred to two black wires and two neutrals, which means two separate 120V circuits - not a multiwire 240V circuit.

[snip irrelevantia]

Kitchen receptacles are not necessarily wired that way.

And there's still the problem that you've disconnected the neutrals from any downstream outlets.

[Jake]

Doug, what you say and have said numerous times in this thread is absolutely correct. I admire you for hanging on this long without giving up.

Sometimes, though, people are always gonna try and take the easy way out.

For the OP, the responders and whoever else is still watching this thread... Doug, and several other posters, have told you what was suggested is wrong, dangerous, and frankly, stupid.

.... as is giving electrical advice when you don't know all the particulars.

Take it from a electrical contractor that is sometimes called upon to help investigate the causes of electrical fires: This could easily cause a fire or get somebody electrocuted.

Good Luck, Doug (-;.

Jake

[Bud]

I think technically a neutral carries the unbalanced current of 2 conductors that are out of phase. Then 120V ckts don't have a neutral (it is the grounded conductor) and 240V ckts may. I don't think the NEC uses the term "neutral".

However "neutral" is commonly used to refer to the "grounded conductor".

This is not intended to place value on the advice of the posters.

Bud--

[John Smith]

Oooo! Someone who knows what they are talking about! (well almost, except for that "out of phase" bit) A true rarity here.

[Chris Lewis]

According to Joseph Meehan :

Kitchen splits in Canada have always required tiebarred breakers. I'm not sure about kitchen splits in the US. They existed, but I don't know of the codes then.

[Chris Lewis]

According to John Smith :

"Out of phase" is the correct terminology here. The two legs of a 240V circuit _are_ out of phase with each other. If they were in-phase with each other, the voltage between the two would be zero.

This has NO relation to 2 (or 3) phase wiring. A multiwire branch is NOT a 2 phase circuit.

[Chris Lewis]

According to jeffc :

You could get a 240V to 120V step-down transformer and run it that way.

But a 120V isolation transformer would probably be cheaper. While it'd be balanced in a sense, the real problem is that both lines are now "floating" (no ground reference). Which can lead to its own noise problems. So, you buy a 120V isolation with a center tap on the secondary, and ground that. Properly balanced.

[Don't try this with some tube gear!]

But frankly, you'd be better off with line filters.

[Calvin Henry-Cotnam]

Split outlets were the only way to go in kitchens in Canada until the recent code update in 2003. Now a 20A circuit can power a non-split T-slot outlet in place of a 15A split circuit.

This change was put in place to support another change in the code that came into effect Jan 1, 2004: kitchen counter outlets within 1 metre of a sink must now be GFCI protected. Since split GFCI outlets are very hard to find (does anyone even make them??!) and 2-pole GFCI breakers are somewhat expensive, the 20A/T-slot solution was adopted.

Though it was not too far out, it was not very practical.

I saw a few posts that qualified the suggestion with making sure there were no other outlets, particuarly downstream, on the circuit. This would not be too much of an issue with the circuit for kitchen split outlets as the Canadian code here dictates that no more than two outlets may be on the same circuit, and then they must not be consecutive along the countertop (wheelchair-accessible outlets notwithstanding).

However, to suggest that such a circuit could be taken away for another use is not likely a feasable option as the code probably requires all the outlets that exist already.