Electrical service - 240v line

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Doug, what you say and have said numerous times in this thread is absolutely correct. I admire you for hanging on this long without giving up.
Sometimes, though, people are always gonna try and take the easy way out.
For the OP, the responders and whoever else is still watching this thread... Doug, and several other posters, have told you what was suggested is wrong, dangerous, and frankly, stupid.
.... as is giving electrical advice when you don't know all the particulars.
Take it from a electrical contractor that is sometimes called upon to help investigate the causes of electrical fires: This could easily cause a fire or get somebody electrocuted.
Good Luck, Doug (-;.
Jake
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snipped-for-privacy@wdeans.com ( snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com) said...

Split outlets were the only way to go in kitchens in Canada until the recent code update in 2003. Now a 20A circuit can power a non-split T-slot outlet in place of a 15A split circuit.
This change was put in place to support another change in the code that came into effect Jan 1, 2004: kitchen counter outlets within 1 metre of a sink must now be GFCI protected. Since split GFCI outlets are very hard to find (does anyone even make them??!) and 2-pole GFCI breakers are somewhat expensive, the 20A/T-slot solution was adopted.

Though it was not too far out, it was not very practical.
I saw a few posts that qualified the suggestion with making sure there were no other outlets, particuarly downstream, on the circuit. This would not be too much of an issue with the circuit for kitchen split outlets as the Canadian code here dictates that no more than two outlets may be on the same circuit, and then they must not be consecutive along the countertop (wheelchair-accessible outlets notwithstanding).
However, to suggest that such a circuit could be taken away for another use is not likely a feasable option as the code probably requires all the outlets that exist already.
--
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
"Never ascribe to malice what can equally be explained by incompetence."
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wrote:

This is dangerous, illegal, and there's a 50% probability that it won't work.
Code requires that all conductors for a given circuit must run in the same raceway or cable. You've just built a 240V circuit - maybe - from two conductors that run in different cables.
The probability is exactly 50% that any two random 120V circuits will be on the *same* leg of the 240V service. Thus, there's a 50% probability that there is ZERO potential between the two hot wires, and the outlet won't work at all.
If there are any outlets downstream of this one, congratulations, Ace - you just disconnected their neutrals.
The only positive thing I can find here is that kitchen outlets (in the US, at least) are very UNlikely to be wired as you describe, and thus it will be impossible - thank God - to implement your absurd advice.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 13:25:55 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

The main power supply that goes into you breaker box is 240 Vac. The cable has four conductors - black, red, white and ground. The black and the red conductors are each connected to its own common bar that you insert your breakers to. The two banks of breakers correspond to the two bars. Each bar measures 115V against the common neutral (white). If you measure across the two bars (Black and Red) you will get 240 Vac.
Now go take a look at your table saw motor. All the motors I have come across have an option to wire it for 115V or for 240V, single phase. Whether it is wired for 115 V or 240 V the power cord that comes out of the motor is pretty ordinary and has only three conductors. So how do you get 240 V to flow through a 3 conductor cord? The answer is the neutral (white) is not used. One pole of the motor is connected to the black wire and the other pole to the red wire. Ground is ground. That's how my garage workshop is set up for 115 Vac and for 240 Vac through its own sub panel. Its humming along fine after >20 years. For safety the 240 V plug has both pins horizontal so that an ordinary 115 V plug cannot be inserted into it. These plugs and receptacles are available from any hardware shop.
Major 240 Vac household appliances like stoves, ovens and dryers use specific four conductor cables and 4 conductor receptacles. Those are mandated by code and come from the manufacturers that way. Why do anything different anyway.
Only KITCHEN receptacles are connected to a paired 115 V breaker in the breaker box. The paired breaker straddles the two bars on the breaker box. If you measure the voltage across the wire that comes out each breaker you should get 240 V. Therefore you can rewire a KITCHEN outlet to give 240 V.
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wrote:

But you specifically referred to two black wires and two neutrals, which means two separate 120V circuits - not a multiwire 240V circuit.
[snip irrelevantia]

Kitchen receptacles are not necessarily wired that way.
And there's still the problem that you've disconnected the neutrals from any downstream outlets.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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I didn't read your whole post, but what you are suggesting is using a multiwire circuit for a 240v circuit. Since that is what a multiwire circuit really is, there is no fundamental reason it can't be converted; assuming it is on a 240v breaker rather than a pair of 120v breakers. And if all the other outlets were removed from the circuit, to avoid mixing 120v and 240v on the same circuit, it might even meet code.
However, even then it does not seem like a reasonable solution for someone who doesn't know if he has a 240v service; even if he has a multiwire circuit he is willing to sacrafice. (though the OP said little about his problem, so it is hard to be sure)
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"I didn't read your whole post, but what you are suggesting is using a multiwire circuit for a 240v circuit. Since that is what a multiwire circuit really is, there is no fundamental reason it can't be converted; assuming it is on a 240v breaker rather than a pair of 120v breakers. "
I think you read it right the first time. This PaPaPeng is a hack. He never mentioned a word about the necessity of the need for a 240V breaker, so that both legs get disconnected together. And only a hack would think of re-routing wiring already in place in kitchen outlets to make a 240V outlet. And there are some very good reasons why this advice is bad and dangerous. For, example, the OP doesn't know anything about even who to call to put in an outlet, you think he's going to know that typical 14 gauge wire you find at a 120V outlet is going to melt if you try to run a dryer with it? I hope PaPa has lots of fire extinguishers and insurance!
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

And so is toller. If he doesn't know that one leg of 120 is neutral then he should go learn something about electrical wiring before posting his opinions.
hvacrmedic
He

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First, look "neutral" up in the dictionary. Second, drop dead you dumb POS.
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toller wrote:

Now, now. We should all remain neutral about this.
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G Henslee wrote:

Frankly most dictionaries don't list technical definitions. The generic electrical definition for neutral is not the same as used in home wiring.

I like that one.
--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit
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Joseph Meehan wrote:

Afterall, it's not as important an issue as say... top posting vs. bottom posting.
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<snigger>
*You* wrote that most 240V circuits *do* have neutrals, and 120V circuits *don't*.
So who's the "dumb POS" ?
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Doug Miller wrote:

I think technically a neutral carries the unbalanced current of 2 conductors that are out of phase. Then 120V ckts don't have a neutral (it is the grounded conductor) and 240V ckts may. I don't think the NEC uses the term "neutral".
However "neutral" is commonly used to refer to the "grounded conductor".
This is not intended to place value on the advice of the posters.
Bud--
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wrote:

then
circuits
Oooo! Someone who knows what they are talking about! (well almost, except for that "out of phase" bit) A true rarity here.
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"Out of phase" is the correct terminology here. The two legs of a 240V circuit _are_ out of phase with each other. If they were in-phase with each other, the voltage between the two would be zero.
This has NO relation to 2 (or 3) phase wiring. A multiwire branch is NOT a 2 phase circuit.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It\'s not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
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toller wrote:

Moron.
hvacrmedic
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"What you are suggesting is, first of all, senseless, since 240V circuits do not have a neutral.
Second, what you are suggesting is dangerous because if you connect these two circuits in the described manner, the circuits will no longer be safe to work on if only one circuit breaker is turned off (if a device is plugged into the 240V outlet and turned on). "
I think this is a classic. The OP didn't even know that he already has 240V at the electric panel, or who to call to get the 240V outlet installed. Then along comes PaPaPeng, telling the guy how to do it himself. And by what's he's told him to do so far, eg, unhook two seperate 120V outlets on different legs and run that to the 240V outlet, it's pretty clear that he doesn't know what the hell he's even talking about. Following he's advice, someone could easily wind up dead.
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wrote:

yeppers...
i
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I did know that of course. I do have a clothes dryer plugged (and hey, at least I installed the 240v cord on that one!) I wasn't clear in my original question, and anyway I like things explained like I'm a total beginner even if I know 50% of the answer already. What I'm ultimately looking for here is not necessarily 240v - actually I'd like to avoid 240v if possible. I'm looking for a balanced line. Now I know the line at the pole is 240v balanced. What I didn't know is if the line at the house was the same, but I assumed it was. I wasn't sure if I was going to have to make a request to the electric company to get that balanced power directly. So if anyone could tell me the easiest way to get a balanced line, even if I have to step down the 240 to 12)?
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