Electrical question on using conduit part II

In article , KJS wrote: [ long and detailed discussion omitted for the sake of brevity. It comes down to: You can really run exposed NM cable a.k.a. Romex in unfinished basements on the walls. ]

You made me go down to my basement (currently being finished!) and get the NEC, and look up all the references. You are indeed completely correct. For some reason, I had stuck in my mind that the 7' rule applied everywhere, and it really is only for attics.

That having been said: If I were a building inspector, and I saw exposed NM on a flat surface in a wood shop (where people move sheets of plywood and long wood pieces around, and push heavy cast iron tools on mobile bases), I would insist on protecting the NM cable. Unfortunately, article 336-6(b) never defines what "physical damage" might mean.

Here is a slightly scary story. When talking to the chief building inspector (the plan checker), he suggested that I use explosion-proof wiring for my wood shop in the basement finishing project. He even pointed out that wood dust in the air does indeed make my 200 sqft shop qualify to be a class II group G hazardous location --- which would have made wiring it just about impossible for an amateur. He relented when I pointed out that (a) all the wiring will be in stud walls, behind drywall, (b) a small residential shop is not a hazardous location (in the NEC sense), and classifying it as such would be at least very unusual. Then he suggested that I get a dust collector to exhaust the dust to the outside; and I showed him that a location for that dust collector was already identified in the plan, and that a dedicated circuit for it will be provided. He really liked that idea. In this climate of extremely eager (one might even say over-eager) building inspectors (a.k.a. the authority having jurisdiction), I'd rather be safe than having to redo the job.

By the way, on another topic: There was a short discussion of box fill calculations. From my experience: A box that is too full or close to the limit according to the NEC calculation is also no fun to wire. Doing it the first time, with all new wire, is doable but tough. But if you ever have to redo it later (add more stuff, change the connections), it gets to be absolutely no fun. After trying to jam too many wires into boxes a few times, I gave up, and got a lot of larger boxes, and even retrofitted them in a few places.

But also, the box fill calculation in the NEC is a little too simplistic. Here are two examples on opposite ends of the spectrum. A wire that simply runs straight through a box counts for one allowance (typically 2.25 cu in for 12-gauge). That's silly, because a wire that goes straight through uses up next to no room, sits flat against the back of the box, and doesn't get in the way. Similar argument for internal clamps, which also cost one allowance, yet the typical Romex-clips that are found in metal outlet boxes use up nearly no room, sit on the edge of the box, and don't get in the way.

On the other hand, a device on a yoke counts for two allowances, independent of what size it is. For a non-grounded light switch (which is very thin) or a normal side-wired 120V outlet, this makes sense. But the same rule applies to really big and fat devices, for example a GFCI with 5 wires attached (2xline, 2xload, ground), or a

4-way light switch (also 5 wires), or a L14-30 outlet (4 wires, each 10-gauge). Trying to push those big devices into a box that's already near the fill calculation limit is not fun, and is really asking for trouble (wires and fingers usually get pinched). In those cases, really deep boxes (2 1/8 deep), or even the oversize boxes (I think they are 4 3/4" square rather than 4" square) are your friends. Extension rings are a second-best solution (because their flange gets in the way).

I'm also not sure I understand the progression of volume allowances. It is 2 cu in for 14-gauge, and only goes up to 3 cu in for 8 gauge. But to me, it seems that 14 gauge is so much easier to handle, in particular because you take a bundle of them, even with a wirenut at the end, and bend them into a nice twisted loop to store them in a box. I'd hate to work in a box that's filled to the NEC limit with solid (not stranded) 10-gauge and 8-gauge conductors, that must be murder.

Reply to
_firstname_
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On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:33:12 -0700, Wayne Whitney wrote (in article ):

Glad to hear of your progress. You certainly can use insulating bushings on the threads of EMT connectors, but they're not required by code. There's also generally not enough thread on an EMT fitting for the locknut and a bushing. It's sometimes useful to use a bushing for the pull (to protect the outer nylon coating of THHN), then remove it.

Regards,

Kenneth

Reply to
KJS

Just remember when you transition from metal to PVC you have to have an equipment ground in the pipe and you need to bond all metalic fittings, boxes and raceways down stream.

Reply to
Greg

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:57:59 -0700, _firstname_@lr_dot_los-gatos_dot_ca.us wrote (in article ):

I certainly agree that exposed NM in a woodshop is not good design, even when run according to the code (which, it is often observed, is comprised of minimum safety requirements - and is not a design manual.)

That's an interesting point. There have been several lengthy discussions on professional electrician's discussion boards about the classification of home wood shops. IMHO it is extremely unlikely that the concentrations of airborne wood dust in a normally ventilated home shop would truly qualify as hazardous. Certainly all reasonable means should be taken to keep airborne dust minimized, not just for electrical safety, but for your health!

I agree that the code box fill requirements are often a bare minimum rather than the optimum for installation and maintenance. In particular, the 2 wire allowance for strap mounted devices seems slim for GFCI receptacles, as you observed. I believe that the cubic inch requirements are based on conductor cooling needs rather than ease of wiring. I personally always use deep boxes (2 1/8") and often use the 4 11/16" square instead of the 4" square - the cost increase is minimal compared to the savings in installation labor and increased ease of maintenance.

I enjoyed reading your lengthy and thoughtful posting.

Kenneth

Reply to
KJS

I m talking about the flex, it has a metallic inner liner with outer pvc jacket.

And I always run a continuous ground from the equipment to the panel grounding bussbar.

Reply to
PrecisionMachinisT

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:40:05 -0700, Wayne Whitney wrote (in article ):

Yes, a lot of thought and postings. And now Wayne will probably be better at his DIY electric project than 95% of those who attempt a similar one. If minimal postings were the measure, Budy, there'd be no purpose to this NG - the only response would be: call a pro :)

Reply to
KJS

Too true, now... let's get on to the buss trolley option which we haven't even begun to dabble in.

If the op were to excersize this option, in say the 40a model, there'd be no need for understanding box fill, conduit bending methods, or the pros/cons of leaving room for future upgrades! :-)

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Reply to
HA HA Budys Here

How do I count a switch on a yoke (box fill wise)? My "Illustrated Guide to the NEC" tells me 2 conductors for a switch and 2 conductors for a yoke as if they were separate counts. According to my math that would be 4, but that would make me exceed the box capacity for a fairly simple 12 AWG wiring. I'm also not sure if there are any devices that don't have a yoke at all.

Thanks,

Thomas

KJS wrote:

_firstname_@lr_dot_los-gatos_dot_ca.us

damage"

explosion-proof

hazardous

discussions on

spectrum.

because

allowances.

gauge.

Reply to
Thomas

2 wires per device, that is a yoke and everything on it equals 2.
Reply to
Greg

Most switches are mounted on a strap and most receptacles are mounted on a yoke. Look at these devices from the side and the origin of the names will become apparent. You only deduct the two wires from the box fill for each yoke or strap no matter how many devices are on that yoke or strap. The two volumes you deduct are for the largest wire that is terminated on that yoke or straps devices rather than the largest wires in the box.

-- Tom H

Reply to
HorneTD

Time to consider a bigger box. Or change the wiring so that you only have one cable at the box/switch location.

Reply to
SQLit

Thanks for all the responses. Knowing that I only have to count 2 conductors per device makes a difference of 18 cu in in my 4 gang box of 60 cu in (43.5 versus 61.5). I'm supplying 2 bathrooms with 2 20 Amp GFCI circuits (recess shower light needs GFCI I think), so I have to run 2 NM12 cables through this box. I realize I could get by with

15 amp for the lights and 20 amps for the receptacles, but I already fished all the wires.
Reply to
Thomas

2 conductors for one yoke.

If you are calulating the actual cubic-inches with the 12awg, then it's 2x2.25

Just what I remember....

later,

tom @

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