Electrical Outlet Replacement

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On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 9:09:58 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:

If you follow what I posted, that isn't the issue. The issue is that it was proposed by Mayayana that you can use the ground provided by old BX as a ground for a new ground type receptacle. It's that ground path, through old BX cable, back to the panel that's in question, ie is it code compliant to replace a grounded receptacle with a grounding one and use an old BX without the bond strip, as the ground. I think it's probably not code compliant.

It's clear to me the box in the pic Derby posted is metal. It's also clear we've been talking about metal boxes in the follow up to Mayayana's suggestion that BX can provide the ground. And given that this is an old house with non-grounding receptacles, seems 99% it's metal boxes there too.
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Tue, 13 Sep 2016 01:58:08 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

I didn't check the pic. I've seen plastic boxes holding the old style two prong outlets, it's the only reason I even commented.
--
MID: <nb7u27$crn$ snipped-for-privacy@boaterdave.dont-email.me>
Hmmm. I most certainly don't understand how I can access a copy of a
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On 09/12/2016 1:37 PM, trader_4 wrote: ...

As a general statement, that's simply unrealizable...a very large majority of people (and many of those are quite intelligent and reasonably knowledgeable) don't know how many of the objects they use daily and mostly, competently, actually "work". It simply isn't a prerequisite.
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On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 3:20:16 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:

It's how I live my life, it's worked very well for me. How others choose to live their lives, is of course, up to them. A good recent example is the guy with the Tesla car in Florida. He was so proud of the autopilot feature, he even made a youtube video of it. A few months later, he was killed when the car drove itself into the side of a tractor trailer. Had he spent the time understanding how it works, what it's limitations are, he'd likely be alive today.
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Tue, 13 Sep 2016 23:01:20 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

Nope. He was watching a movie on a portable DVD player. [g] I hope the movie was worth it. I tried to find the article where this detail was originally mentioned, but, in a rush and had no luck. Seems they'd rather focus on the car screwing up with the reports I found rather than admit the driver was being careless. Gotta love what passes for journalism these days.

It may have setup the drive incorrectly, though. As it didn't know you were restoring to SSD. IE: partition alignment. Get the most out of that uber quick drive. [g]
http://preview.tinyurl.com/7y9j8xw
With that said, I've seen cases (specifically with HP) where the restore discs do not work. IE: HP didn't check to make sure it works if needed. That was a lot of fun to be told by the computer that the discs it created weren't made for it and so it wouldn't use them. Luckily! I was a hardass concerning external drive and imaging, so that saved his bacon.
I've seen Dells restore program fail for the same reason too. So, instead of relying on it alone, I have the clients use an external HD and use a program like Clonezilla (if their semi technical literate) and/or Macrium Reflect to image the entire drive onto the external and disconnect it when not in use; so as to prevent possible ransomware from gaining access to the contents of that drive in the event the client compromises his/her system with one.
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trader_4 explained on 9/13/2016 :

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/01/tesla-driver-killed-autopilot-self-driving-car-harry-potter
It's The Guardian, so maybe.
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trader_4 posted for all of us...

I saw a piece on Bitching Betty that Boeing uses on the F-18. It's a female voice that informs the pilots of actions or faults that are serious. If they can create a system for a fighter jet wouldn't a car be a wiz? Think of the lives saved! Think of the kids!
--
Tekkie

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Mon, 12 Sep 2016 18:37:56 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

I've said that for years concerning computers. The typical comeback is that a person shouldn't have to know what it is or how it works to be able to use it. I've never agreed with that line of thinking...
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On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 2:12:15 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:

...and I'll bet there is a group of people that have half a clue and assume that the ground lug on the adapter automatically provides a ground if it is attached the receptacle cover screw. It *might* (like it would have on the 1st floor of my house) but it's certainly not true in (probably) most cases (like the 2nd floor of my house).
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DerbyDad03 wrote:

Seriously, I think that's the majority.... and I suspect that's the most popular usage! : )
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"DerbyDad03" wrote
| If a ground wire is present at the location of the 2 prong receptacles, then | you can replace them on an individual basis and attach the ground wire to | the ground screw of the 3 prong receptacle. |
Also, if the wiring is grounded BX cable, the outlet will be grounded by screwing it to the metal box.
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On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 3:42:24 PM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:

And now we get to the finer points. This is an old house, so presumably it's old BX. In the days of old, BX did not have the bare bonding wire in it that it has today. So, the house in question here probably doesn't have the newer BX either. In which case, I would think it's probably not code compliant to rely on the old BX sheath without the bonding wire as a ground. Meaning that if you want it to be code compliant, the only way to upgrade to a grounded receptacle in that situation, is to either use a GFCI or to rewire the circuit with a ground.
Gfre?
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On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 4:09:32 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:

OK, I have to pick some nits here:
Nit #1:
re: "This is an old house..."
The OP said "I am leasing an older home." Older than what? Is a 20 YO house an "older home"? Compared to new construction, yes. A 40 YO house could be considered an "older home" to someone in his 20's.
I would not presume BX until the OP told us what type of wiring he had, regardless of the age of the house. Heck for all we know, it's a really "older home" with K&T. ;-)
Nit #2:
"...the only way to upgrade to a grounded receptacle in that situation, is to either use a GFCI or to rewire the circuit with a ground."
The use of a GFCI will not result in an "upgrade to a grounded receptacle". It will allow for an "upgrade to a 3 prong receptacle" but nothing more.
(I know you know that, I'm just trying to be clear so there is no confusion, especially if the OP actually comes back and reads these responses.)
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"DerbyDad03" wrote
| Nit #1: |
You could save your nits if you'd just filter out Trader_4. He always knows just enough to confuse things, and *always* wants to tell that partial knowledge.
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On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 5:57:55 PM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:

Excuse me, you just told the OP that if in his old house he has BX cable, he can use that as the ground and go ahead and put in grounded receptacles. I don't believe that is code compliant for the reason I stated. I tossed the question out to Gfre. I think it's better we have an accurate and code compliant answer. I'm not sure if I'm right or wrong, but I know the question is legitimate. If you don't like that you can just go fuck yourself. How's that? Still pissed off because you were wrong when you told everyone that a 32 bit architecture CPU can't address or use more than 4GB of memory and I corrected that, pointing out that Pentium II and beyond can address 64GB?
And I'd point out that in this case I gave the correct answer to the OP in my first post. Did you give a correct answer saying that you can use an old BX ground without the internal bonding strip to install a grounded receptacle where one doesn't exist today? Maybe Gfre will weigh in. I know my answer was code compliant, are you sure about yours? As sure as you were about 32 bit CPUs?
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On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 4:32:28 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I didn't presume anything. I gave the answer as to what to do in my first post. It was Mayayana who brought up BX and said that if that was present you could use it as the source for the new ground. I simply brought up the question of whether you can do that regardless of what kind of BX it is or not. Old BX does not have the bonding wire that new BX does. You can't use old BX to install a new grounded circuit because it's not a sufficient, approved ground. I would think that means that you can't use it as a ground to upgrade an old ungrounded receptacle to a new one that is grounded. I tossed that question out for Gfre if he cares.
Now you can go argue with Mayayana about how old is old, etc. Since it has ungrounded receptacles, that puts it circa 50+ years old, which is old enough that if it has BX, it's BX that's old enough that my point is valid. Next I suppose you'll be arguing that it's possible the village idiot wired the house only ten years go somewhere that doesn't follow NEC or where there are no inspections required, so I have to cover that possibility too.

Yes, I agree but I made that abundantly clear in my very first post.
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On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 10:13:51 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03

GFCI may not be required - but total circuit rewire would be - with grounded cable.

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On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 12:56:22 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

If it's a two prong, ie no ground receptacle in an older home then there is almost certainly no ground. You can't just replace it with a 3 prong, ground type, but you can replace it with a three prong, ground type receptacle if you install a GFCI and mark the receptacle as GFCI protected, no eqpt ground. A GFCI breaker will protect all the receptacles on the circuit. A GFCI receptacle will protect itself and any other receptacles that are downstream of it and connected to the load side of the GFCI. Those downstream receptacles may then be replaced with 3 prong, ground type and marked as described.
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On 9/12/2016 10:16 AM, trader_4 wrote:

I don't know about "almost certainly", but I have seen homes with two prong outlets where the boxes did have ground wires.
Also, at some point in the past a metal conduit sometimes served as the ground "wire".
The use of a tester is a good suggestion.
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On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 10:29:38 -0700, Taxed and Spent

n I would be willing to bet the "original" receptacles are not grounded and do not have a ground present, while all "additional" circuits (added later in the life of the house) are 3 wire grounded installations. Good possibility there are a few "originals" that have been replaced with grounded outlets which do not have a ground wire installed. In many parts of the country conduit is virtually unheardof in residential wiring. Same with metallic sheather wire such as "BX". Romex all the way.
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