electrical interruption

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w_tom wrote:

As it vaporizes it should blow the fuse device.

It's the whole-house protector that is parallel to the load, like a light bulb. a plug-in protector should put at least two inductors and two fuse devices in series with the load.

Too little got through the protector to damage the TV.

AFAIK, I've never had a plug-in protector damaged. My neighbors wiped one out because their phone ground isn't bonded to their power ground.
I installed my whole-house protector 20 years ago and don't remember the specs. I suppose it clamps at something like 300 volts. It would do nothing to a transient up to 300 volts from ground. The transformer that powers digital equipment responds to the derivative of input current. The fast rise time of a transient could send a big spike through the transformer even if the transient is less than 300 volts. A plug-in surge protector blocks transients with inductors.

I know it did not save my tv and my stereo. As they were plugged into an ungrounded outlet and the antenna was rabbit ears and there was no ground nearby, I know the electrical path was between the hot and the neutral. Why would I want to replace all electrical components?
The cause was the breaking of a distant power line in an ice storm. Therefore, the surge must have affected the input of the street transformer and both sides of the output. Clearly, the plug-in protector saved my computer equipment from the same fate as my TV and stereo.

How often do plug-in protectors cause fires? UL seems to find them safe.

How many joules do you think the protector absorbed? Did any of his breakers kick? What equipment in his house was running? Did he have any plug-in protectors? Was his whole-house protector still okay?
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A fuse that blows inside a protector only disconnects the protector from AC mains. It leaves the appliance fully connected. This was all but required by UL1449 2nd edition when so many protectors failed catastrophically and spit flames. Tests for two separate articles in 1980s PC Magazine even noted the problem.
Today protectors are a less of a fire hazards due to UL1449 2nd edition. We had a UL1449 protector spit flames once. It was on linoleum tile. The last place a protector (or the mains circuit breakers) need be located is among combustible material. We enclose circuit breakers for the same reason. Breakers also never spit sparks, except .... When was the last time your rug caught fire due to an extension cord. And yet that fire also is now considered so dangerous that Arc Fault breakers are required. Last place I want an undersize protector (which means plug-in protector) is where a protector failure can cause a fire.
In the meantime, a microsecond (and destructive) transient has already damaged electronics while in-line fuses take milliseconds to blow? There is no inline fuses on plug-in protectors to disconnect the appliance. Furthermore fuses don't protect from transients.
Fuses disconnect damaged electronics from the AC mains for human safety - so the house does not burn down. That is also the function of a fuse on surge protector circuits. Fuse disconnects a vaporized or shorted protector; while appliance remains fully connected and exposed to the transient. Fuse only disconnects the MOV - not the appliance. (This MOV fuse should not be confused with the larger 15 amp breaker.)
A plug-in protector puts no fuses in series with the load. And those inductors? Application notes from MOV manufacturers recommend those inductors only to protect the MOVs. Smaller MOV then can withstand slightly more energy. Those inductors are ... well again the numbers ... are insufficient inductance as load protection. Furthermore, an electronic appliance already has a superior line filter inside its power supply - to meet FCC requirements. The inductor in a power strip protector - if it even exists - is not for appliance protection.
Previously cited was a damaged TV and stereo; and an undamaged damaged computer. Assumed was that all had equal internal protection. The TV need only meet the 600 volt standard (posted previously). Computer power supplies must withstand voltages in excess of 1000 volts - as even demanded by Intel specs. So a transient large enough to overwhelm 600 volt protection inside a TV could not overwhelm the 1000 volt protection in a computer power supply. Where does that damage prove a computer protector with too few joules did anything? It does not. And again, with or without the plug-in protector, the computer was connected directly to AC mains. More likely, the computer protected itself.
BTW, also mentioned was a grounded receptacle. No earth ground exists at that wall receptacle. Wire impedance (and other electrical concepts) means a receptacle has all but no earth ground. Another critical expression was posted that examples the concept - 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth ground. Wire distance and other factors inside wall wires conspire to make that receptacle safety ground not an earth ground. No earth ground is why plug-in protectors are not effective.
I can appreciate why you might think the plug-in protector effective. But principles of junior high school science apply. A fact must be proven both theoretically and experimentally. Your example contradicts well proven theory. And numbers for internal appliance protection explain why one appliance may be damaged while the other not damaged. You example does not demonstrate the plug-in protector did anything effective.
From that FL (Hurricane Andrew) example, thousands of volts on a 120 volt AC line will damage appliances whether off or on. Switches (and fuses) are only rated for hundreds of volts. Thousands of voltage would have passed through those open switches (and fuses). Many appliances (ie computers and remote controlled TVs) have power always applied. He had no appliance damage - not even a clock - according to the sales brochure. That protector was rated at 1200 joules. To be equivalent, a plug-in protector would need be rated at 2400 to 3600 joules.
No that FL protector was operating well beyond what even 'whole house' protectors are designed to do. It was blackened. That is all I remember about the protector. I don't even remember if his Mains breaker tripped. But a protector designed to withstand 300 'same sized transients' did accomplish what the plug-in '2 transient' (undersized) protector obviously could not. A protector rated for 150 times more 'same sized transients' could accomplish the protection - albeit destructively. Those grossly undersized plug-in protectors would have only protected themselves. To meet UL1449, grossly undersized plug-in protectors must quickly disconnect MOV protector circuits - abandoning the appliance to protect itself.
In the meantime, protectors are for destructive transients that occur in microseconds - transistor protection. Fuses and circuit breakers are for milliseconds events and longer - human protection. Transistor protection means the protector is only as effective as its earth ground which is why one 'whole house' protector is so effective.
In the meantime, none of this would solve or address the strange light flickering.
Choreboy wrote:

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w_tom wrote:

In the 80s I had modems protected only by tiny fuses that blew very fast. I quit blowing fuses when I got a good plug-in suppressor.
I don't know about every surge protector, but a standard simple design has a fuse, a shunting MOV, an inductor, and the load. If the MOV blows the fuse, the load is disconnected. Meanwhile, the inductor blocks transients.

I have one surge protector which instantly disconnects the load with even tiny transients. It crashes my computer several times a month.
Another suppressor of mine has five MOVs, six diodes, two glass fuses, two special-purpose fuses, two resistors, a transistor, a transistor wired as a diode, and a capacitor.

How much inductance does it take to protect an appliance from a 1-microsecond transient? Are you saying the FCC requires lightning protection?

I don't have an Intel computer. Where would I find the requirements for *my* computer?

Wrong. A whole-house protector won't ensure that the ground at each receptacle in a house will stay at the same potential when lightning strikes. OTOH, whether or not you have a whole-house protector, if all computer equipment that's connected together is supplied through the same plug-in surge protector, it will all have the same ground when lightning strikes.

My example contradicts well proven theory? Then the well proven theory must be that a computer plugged into a surge protector will blow and a TV plugged directly into an outlet won't blow.

I had whole-house protection when my TV and stereo blew.

I talked to people from a fourth house on our transformer. They weren't home at the time, but they had to reset everything when they got home.
I also talked to the lineman. He likes whole-house protectors, but he says a lightning arrester is more important. For a small fee the power company will hook one to your meter. You can tell at a glance if it's okay.
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My neighbor advised (too late) that he was having strange electrical things happening in his kitchen last week:
Turned on O/H light and the control panel on his stove went dim and similar.
After a couple of days of ignoring it, the BIG one finally hit. All the LCD indicators/controls on his 1. NEW stove 2. microwave 3. New $ 200 coffee maker 4. Digital phone & answering machine went out.
He called in the local electric utility who said it was probably a neutral failure in THEIR line (up to the meter) and if so, they'd go good for new appliances.
Well it turned out the Elec Co line was OK. What they did find though was that the original electrician has double wired some of the neutral circuits in his panel to the neutral bar by putting two neutrals in one hole. It appears that a couple weren't tightened down properly and although it was CU wire and has lasted OK for 17 yrs, a couple of these neutrals lost their connection somehow, burnt and arced and caused a 220V spike thru one side of the panel.
The fridge and stove ARE working, but the digital/LCD controls/boards are burned out as are the brains of the other two items. Looks like about $2K to replace the burnt items.He s lucky his $ 3000 TV, surround sound , computer and so on, that are on the other side of the panel were OK.
The fix was to strip back the burnt neutrals to new clean wire and reattach. Strangely, his house and mine are about the same size but my panel is probably 30% larger. Looks like the electrician 'skimped' on his install
Rudy.
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A destructive transient cannot be blocked, stopped, or absorbed. Series inductance will stop the transient? Fuse will stop a transient? Does not happen. Numbers provided in the previous post make that woefully obvious.
But those grossly undersized and ineffective protector manufacturers hope you will believe typically destructive transients can be blocked. They can't make that claim, but hope you will do so anyway. Meanwhile, the fuse is required to keep you from being killed by a grossly undersized protector - as required by UL1449. Earlier protectors did not have a fuse and therefore created fire dangers. Dangerous because the MOV was grossly undersized to fail during transients too small to even overwhelm internal appliance protection. The fuse disconnects MOV after failure and during what is called 'follow-on' current; utility electricity. The fuse is only to protect you; not transistors. The inductor does not stop a transient. What is the breakdown voltage of that inductor? How much current saturated the inductor? More damning numbers they hope you never ask.
Again, destructive transients are diverted - downstream by a dike. Inline inductance or a fuse will not stop a flood by damming the river. But then the manufacturer does not even make that claim. He hopes you will make assumptions to promote myths. The MOV, inductor, and fuse combination; will that one inch part stop what 3 miles of sky could not? Tell me how those woefully undersized parts can stop 1000 volts created by a trivial microseconds transient? If you think that inductor is effective protection, then tie knots in wires for additional protection. Wire knots are another myth. If the inductor does as you claim, then so do wire knots.
Where were fuses in your 1980 modem? Where does the transient come from that typically damaged modems? From AC mains. Phone lines already have effective protectors installed by the telco. Effective when that 'whole house' protector routinely installed for free by the telco is properly earthed. Incoming AC mains typically have no earthed protection. Even worse, the adjacent plug-in protector provides destructive AC mains transients with more potentially destructive paths through that modem.
If a modem fuse will stop a transient, then the modem's off-hook relay (that connects phone line to modem) already accomplished that function. Fuse was not necessary. In fact, that relay blocks higher voltages than a fuse. And still the transient passes right through a relay. What is a typical path of modem destructive transient? Through modem's relay coil to relay wiper. Then out via phone line to earth ground. Is the relay coil isolated from the wiper (switching contact)? Yes. But a breakdown voltage exists. Don't take my word for it. Get that number from datasheets. Once that breakdown voltage is exceeded, then relay coil is electrically connected to wiper. A blowing 250 volt fuse (for 120 volt service) also will not interrupt a transient of a thousand volts. Neither fuse nor off-hook relay inside modem's DAA section will not stop a trivial 1000 volt transient. If the relay cannot stop it, then what good are those tiny fuses? Useless for transient protection. Fuses don't stop destructive transients as repeatedly demonstrated by numbers - both time and voltage. To declare otherwise, you must address those numbers that also showed why your stereo could be damaged and computer not damaged. Numbers that also say that plug-in protector is a waste of good money.
Effective protection is always about diverting. Those with both theory and experience know there is nothing in a modem or a power strip protector that will block or stop the typically destructive transient - as was well understood even before WWII. See citations below for a days worth of reading.
If you think, even for a moment, that any protector opens to block a transient, then they have you promoting junk science reasoning. Look on datasheets. The numbers say otherwise. What is the voltage rating on that fuse? What is the response time for a fuse? Damning numbers. 300 consecutive and destructive transients could pass through the fuse and the fuse would not blow. Damning numbers that again demonstrate what was always well understood. Nothing will stop, block, or absorb the typically destructive transient. Only myth purveyors promote protectors that stop, block, or absorb transients. Selling those plug-in protectors at grossly inflated prices.
What do those ineffective protector manufacturers hope you assume? That the MOV, inductor, and fuse somehow disconnects equipment from the mains. Absolute nonsense. Notice they don't discuss earthing? Why? Earthing is not provided by a wall receptacle safety ground. Do not confuse safety ground with earth ground.
What do MOVs do? They shunt a transient from one wire to all others. A destructive transient on black (brown) hot wire is distributed to all other wires. MOV protector has simply provided the transient with more potentially destructive paths through powered off appliances. And that inductor? So small as to be considered nonexistent.
There is no inductance or fuse that will stop what 3 miles of sky could not stop. Again, - and this is essential - the protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Why? Effective protectors shunt - connect the transient 'less than 10 feet' to earth.
That utility lightning arrestor is a 'whole house' protector. Yes the utility will put a 'whole house' protector behind the meter and charge a rather expensive $4 or $6 per month. Is it sufficient? Earthing is your responsibility - not theirs. If your earthing does not meet or exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code requirements, then that lightning arrestor / 'whole house' protector does nothing effective.
Meanwhile, tell me how they take those milliamp measurements without disconnecting the lightning arrestor during testing? The can report if the protector has been catastrophically damaged. They cannot report if the arrestor is still good. Appreciate the ternary logic. They cannot report protector degradation; only report protector failure due to catastrophic damage. Nothing new here. This stuff is well proven generations ago. Yet many assume if it can report a failure, then it can also report the protector is good. Erroneous conclusions based on binary logic. That lightning arrestor and 'whole house' protector are same thing.
What does that utility lightning arrestor do? Connects AC mains to earth ground during the transient. No earth ground means ... well it should be obvious by now that nothing is going to stop, block, or absorb destructive transients. Nothing. Effective protection has always been about diverting the flood downstream away from the town - dikes. Dams simply overflow or fail during the massive flood. Effective protectors do same - shunt (divert, connect) a transient very short distance (downstream) to earth. Why did your 'whole house' protector fail to protect the stereo? You never mention earthing. Repeatedly you imply the protector is protection. You first statements about that stereo and TV damage should have described the earthing system in detail - and said almost nothing about the protectors.
Ineffective protector manufacturers avoid discussion of earthing and hope you will confuse safety ground (ie wall receptacle) with earthing. No way around principles so well understood that Ben Franklin demonstrated in 1752.
What is your computer? Those Intel standards for power supply that have been industry standards for so long and taken up by a large consortium of computer manufacturers. If the computer uses an ATX standard power supply (and the manufacturer is honest), then a power supply must meet those Intel standards.
Previously posted was a long list of citations from 'real world' professionals using both theory and experience. Figure about one full day of reading. Citations were posted recently in alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus on 30 Mar 2005 entitled "UPS unit needed for the P4C800E-Deluxe" at http://makeashorterlink.com/?X61C23DCA
Choreboy wrote:

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Generally, neutral wire problems are evidenced by some incandescent lamps glowing dimmer and other glowing brighter; when an appliance power cycles. Also brighter bulbs tend to burn out significantly quicker. Neither fuse nor protector (plug-in or 'whole house') will protect from this type of electrical problem.
However, one homeowner discovered why that earthing ground is so important. A neutral wire in a utility transformer failed. The house then used the gas line to carry neutral current because an earth ground had been compromised (disconnected). Fortunately no one was home when a gas line gasket failed and the building exploded.
Rudy wrote:

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A few years back, there was a lightning storm in the neighborhood. One hit sounded really close aboard and the lights flickered a bit. Couldnt see anything that got damaged but the next day when I went into the den to work on the computer, I smelled something like plastic burning. (BTW, I dont leave my computer "on" when not in use).
I tried to power it up but no luck. I looked behind the desk and found my APC surge protector had no green lights on it. I opened up the case and there was a bunch of fried circuits and melted plastic inside. Fortunately, APC warranteed the unit for 5 years so I got a new one for the cost of shipping.
I "dont leave home without it" now. Now that I think about it..I'd better get one for my new Big Screen HDTV ASAP !!
Rudy
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SOARS book on grounding has some easy text. Try your library. IEEE 519 (I think) says for surge protection you need to do 2 of the 3 zones. One zone is the utility so that is out. Next is the service, next is point of use. So as a user you can protect the service and point of use.
I just installed a GE made surge arrestor for my GE service. Just plugs in to the buss and acts like a 2 pole breaker with a green light. http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/products?pnlid=3&famid7&catid &id=thqlsurg&lang=en_US incase your interested, other manufactures make them for their panels as well.
I also have point of use protection. Most of the ones made today have protection levels of around 330v. Remember Metal Oxide Varsities are UL tested ONCE. Not twice. I replace all of my point of use stuff every 2 years just before the Monsoons.
If your really into it test your grounding at your service. You will need to beg or borrow special equipment for this. Check out http://www.groundtesterstore.com/clamp/aemc3731.php I have used one of these many times. Especially when driving grounds for fall of potential is out of the question. Other companies make them as well.
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Rudy wrote:

I was online when lightning hit a tree 25 feet from my service entrance. My phone service went dead due to a blown fuse on the telephone pole, but I had no damage. Like you, I've had good experience, but I wish I could find statistics and I wish I knew how some models are designed to be more reliable than others.
Choreboy
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Choreboy still does not appreciate that my knowledge comes from well beyond suffering damage. Suffering damage teaches little. Notice how theory completely changes Choreboy's conclusions - the computer protected itself.
I built protectors. Saw some fail spectacularly. Other worked phenomenally when other unprotected appliances suffered damage. Even replaces electronic components on damages equipment to learn why damage happens - ie followed the circuit path of surges. Experience is useless without the associate theory.
From junior high school science, one must have both theory and experience to have knowledge. One without the other is nothing more than speculation. The theory and my decades of experience is tempered by something that few can or are willing to provide - the numbers.
Let's return to Rudy's post. The protector was so grossly undersized as to abandon an adjacent computer to the transient. Fortunately the computer had better internal protection than the grossly undersized power strip. However Rudy fell into thinking exactly what grossly undersized protector manufacturers hope he will assume. He assumes a damaged protector was providing protection. In reality, the protector that remains functional after the surge is effective protection. Effective protection means one never even knew the transient existed.
Now to provide some additional facts. For example, was the APC sitting between computer and the transient? Mechanically yes. Electrically no. That surge hit both APC and computer equally. The APC connects to AC electric as if it was a light bulb - just like the computer. Choreboy - that is how the protectors are constructed. They are called shunt mode protectors because that is how they are wired.
Computers have internal protection. A transient too small to overwhelm computer protection instead easily destroyed a grossly undersized protector. Yes, undersized protector. How many joules in that protector? Why is that plug-in protector so grossly undersized? Rudy demonstrates why. He then assumes an ineffective and burned protector did something. Reality - that computer protected itself. A tiny transient destroyed the grossly undersized plug-in protector.
Little difference whether the computer is on or off. First, a powered off computer is always on; just like the TV. Second, a power strip protector can even provide the transient with a destructive path through adjacent computer. An adjacent protector may even contribute to damage of a powered off computer. No wonder those plug-in manufacturers avoid all discussion about earthing.
More facts from one who even designed and tested this stuff. But don't take my word for it. How many joules on that plug-in protector? If that protector is effective, then put up the numbers? I keep asking for numbers. Where are those numbers - the joules?
Does zone of service suggest where a protector will be effective? No. Those zones only define the electrical characteristics of a transient. Those zones define where a protector can be used safely - for human safety. Protectors that are effective at the appliance are already inside the appliance. Internal protection that can be overwhelmed if protection is not installed in those other zones - ie properly earthed at the service entrance. This is called secondary protection.
BTW, the utility already has installed protection on the utility wires. You should inspect this protection - the primary protection: http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
How does a 'point of use' protector provide protection? When it makes a 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth ground. If earthing is not provided, then the protector must be moved to where earth ground exists: the service entrance. Also called 'whole house' protector.
The recommended GE THQLSURGE protector was once sold in Lowes. It was undersized. Yes it could make the 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth. But it was undersized. Multiple GE THQLSURGE products would increase the joules. But GE now sells a properly sized 'whole house' protector in Lowes. Other minimally acceptable 'whole house' protectors are sold in Lowes (Cutler Hammer) and Home Depot (Intermatic). Other manufactures of effective protector are Square D, Leviton, Siemens, and Furse. I don't know of any APC product that qualifies for that list.
But again, the protector is not protection. Choreboy still does not yet grasp the point. It is not about "plug-in protectors are worthless". That was not the point. Protection is about earthing. More importantly "the quality of and connection to a single point earth ground".
Choreboy suffered damage even with a 'whole house' protector. That means he should begin by asking questions about his earthing system. To talk about protectors as protection means one does not grasp the concept. To believe a vaporized protector was effective is only wild speculation. Single point earth ground. The one absolutely necessary component. The component that defines protection. Any post about what protector 'is and is not' effective means the poster still does not understand the concept. Choreboy's first question should have been, "Why did my earthing system fail?"
Again, the three zones do not define what protectors will be effective. Those zones only define electrically what transients can be expected. Zones define what is required so that a protector will not harm humans. To provide protection in those zones requires something not defined by those zones - earthing. Something that some in this discussion have not yet asked about. Why? Still some here confuse a protector with protection. Without questions about a unique type of grounding: earthing, then concepts of transient protection are not yet understood. Protection is only as effective as the earth ground.
AlanBown wrote:

http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/products?pnlid=3&famid7&catid &id=thqlsurg&lang=en_US
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All I know is that the APC wasnt cheap. Some "surge" protected bars were around $ 10-15 The APC was closer to $30+ ( cheap considering the computer system it was protecting cost 3 grand) but sure worked well and of course, I got its replacement free. Its now protecting my 46" Hitachi HDTV
R
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So are you saying that this "protector" isn't capable of protecting my computer or TV now ? It doesn't say how many joules its rated for, just the following : LN 330V LG 330V NG 330V Does this go for the millions of surge protectors that nearly every home in North America is using to protect their home electronics ?
As far as grounding goes, my former home (also in the Tucson monsoon area) was grounded by a ~ 1/8" copper ground wire connected thru my service box to the rebar in the foundation. There was another one from the Satellite dish, to the bottom plate J bolts to the rebar again
R
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w_tom wrote:

The astronomers who first said earth revolved around the sun suffered because their observations contradicted theory. The guy who found that medal objects had buoyancy also suffered for contradicting theory.

Is the protection built into a computer undersized?

Zero Surge used to discuss it on their website.

No, the grounding conductor in your wiring could pick up a surge at various points in a building, especially in a thunderstorm. A plug-in protector will keep it from killing your computer.

It's no protection for computers. If lightning hits in your area, the power company's grounding rods will pick up the surge and bring it right to your house.

Earth ground is for human protection, in case you stand in a puddle or touch a metal pipe. All that matters to electronic gear is whether it's connected to conductors with large voltage differences.

Earthing once cost me a computer. A lightning surge came in the power company's grounded conductor, through the whole-house protector to the 120 line, from that line through the computer to modem to the phone line, from there through the telco entrance lightning protector to the telco entrance earth ground.
I discovered the problem and bonded the grounds before the next strike. Zero Surge says a protector won't protect your equipment if the earth grounds aren't bonded.

The only electrical path to my stereo and TV was from the hot wire to the neutral. There was no ground wire. The antenna was rabbit ears.

If there is any other path by which a ground surge can affect you, a single-point earth ground is a hazard to people and equipment. I have two points here. I needed four points at the farm to stop damage. A lineman I know needed three points at his house.
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AlanBown wrote:

http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/products?pnlid=3&famid7&catid &id=thqlsurg&lang=en_US
That indicator light would be helpful.

That's expensive! If it merely clamps around a conductor, I wonder how it tells grounding resistance. I know it's hard to measure with an ordinary ohmmeter. When I did it years ago, I think I checked the flow from a 9-V battery between two ground rods.

I don't understand that sentence.
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Zerosurge avoids a discusson about earthing. Typically destructive transients would go right around the Zerosurge protector using the ground wire. Better to avoid discussion even of that safety ground wire. Zerosurge sells series mode protectors. By themselves, series mode protectors are ineffective. Manufacturer hopes a 'dam' will stop, block, or absorb the flood (destructive transient).
However Zerosurge protectors can be effective if supplementing a protection system. If used in conjuction with a properly earthed 'whole house' protection system, then the Zerosurge protector acts like a 'dike'. Major difference between a dam and a dike. A dam never stops, blocks, or absorbs the destructive flood. But dikes help divert the destructive flood downstream. This means earthing (downstream) is essential for series mode protectors to be effective.
Appliances already contains a dike. Internal protection that can be overwhelmed if the primary and secondary protection systems are not installed. What is the most critical component of primary and secondary protection systems? Earth ground. But Zerosurge avoids that discussion.
The protection built into appliances is sufficient when part of a protection 'system'. Internal protection alone is insufficient without the primary and secondary protection 'systems'. Internal protection can be overwhelmed by trasnsients that occur typically once every eight years. From trivial transents created by refirgerators, dishwasher, and furnace (also called noise), the appliance protection is more than sufficient.
What is this transient picked up by a building's grounding system especially during thunderstorms? If that transient was so destructive, then nearby lightning would destroy electronics literally tuned to the destructive frequencies of lightning - AM radios. How many AM radios inside cars are damaged after every thunderstorm.
Why is that damage number virtualy zero? Because those mythical surges created by nearby lightning strikes are promoted only on myth - without numbers. Any transient created by nearby lightning on the ground wire is made irrelevant by protection inside the appliance.
However, plug-in (point of use) protector do create other internal transients. Induced transients are created when a plug-in protector tries to earth a transient on the safety ground wires. Safety ground wires are bundled with all other wires. Any transient being earthed by a plug-in protector now induces transients on all other wires. IEEE papers discuss this problem. Earthing a transient on wires bundled with other wires only complicates transient solution. Just another reason why plug-in protector are ineffective.
Effective 'whole house' protectors earth a transient on wires separated from other wires. But again, notice that Choreboy does not ask about earthing. How a 'whole house' protector is earthed determined protection. Described are induced transients that can be created when the electrician does not properly install a 'whole house' protector or when using plug-in protectors.
A protector is only as effective as its "connection to and quality of" earth ground. Something that Zerosurge avoids discussing to sell their product. It's called lying by telling half truths - or propaganda.
Choreboy demonstrates another myth:

An example of 'lying by telling half truths'. A problem eliminated when using the single point earth ground. Again, the primary protection system is demonstrated by these pictures: http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html If the primary protection system is compromised, then extra stress is placed on a secondary protection system. And if no secondary protection system exists, then a plug-in protector may provide the transient with potentially destructive paths through your household appliances.
Again Choreboy muddies the water:

Yes. And it is also required for transistor safety - as was posted both previously and repeatedly. Bottom line: the plug-in protector provides no effective protection and can even contribute to damage of the adjacent appliance. I have even traced such damage through a network of powered off computers. But then I learned by doing the work - fixing things at the electronic component level and then kept asking why. Choreboy instead claims:

This posted without a single fact or number to prove his point. He would recommend plug-in protectors that are even undersized- too few joules? Unfortunately, he recites half truths and myths promoted by those plug-in protector advocates. He even denies a basic concept. What does lightning seek? Earth ground. What did Franklin even use to protect church steeples? Earthing. Instead Choreboy states:

Then he contradicts himself:

Which is it? Earthing causes damage or earthing is necessary?
Choreboy later admits to defective earthing. Meanwhile, earthing for electronics protection was well proven even before WWII. How can Choreboy deny this? He does not even know what inside each appliance was damaged. A dead body is best evidence. But one mustfirst learn the underlying theories. Unfortunately, Choreboy now recites propaganda from plug-in protectors advocats - much like those religous leaders who insisted the sun goes around the earth. One who learns also performs an autopsy. Those who worship myths from plug-in protector advocates, instead just somehow know - facts be damned.
Choreboy had damage due to defects in his earthing system which he eventually admits to. But he still does not ask a single question as to how to fix his earthing system. He just knows a grossly overpriced and undersized plug-in protector is effective. This even though numbers previously demonstrated why his stereo and TV could be damaged; and internal protection inside the computer protected the computer.
Choreboy eventually admits why his protection system did not work:

Ironic. Previously he posted that earthing causes damage? Now he admits a violation of single point earthing principles. Instead we consult those who do the science. A figure from the National Institute of Standards and Technology demsonstrates how multiple grounds cause damage to a fax: http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html But again, I am discussing what provides effective protection. Earthing. What Choreboy avoids learning about and yet assumes is not effective? Earthing.
Choreboy suffered damage to TV and stereo. How does an AC line surge enter these appliances? Incoming on AC electric hot wire. Outgoing paths include the properly earthed antenna, or via speaker or antenna wires draped on floor, on baseboard heat, against chimeny, on lioleum tile, etc. Other earthing paths could also exist. Two wire appliances are damaged when those transients are not properly earthed (which BTW has nothing to do with a safety ground wire on appliance power cord). A surge may find destructive paths through and damage transistorized appliances because, as Choreboy now admits, his earthing system is defective.
For those who want real world protection at about $1 per protected appliance: the protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
Unfortunately, Choreboy's knowledge comes from sources of propaganda such as Zerosurge and from myths promoted by plug-in protector advocates. He even now denies the critical need for single point ground, as even the NIST says is necessary. His defective earthing suggests why he suffered unnecessary appliance damage. Damage from a transient so trivial as to not even overwhelm protection inside a computer.
Choreboy wrote:

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Ironic that Choreboy would mention Zerosurge. Zerosurge demonstrates with pictures how ineffective plug-in protectors can be: http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
They even remove MOVs from a plug-in protector; remove the protection components. Lights still say the protector is working just fine. What kind of protection is that? Ineffective - and a protector that also is not properly earthed. Even lights that are suppose to report a good plug-in protector are 'lying by telling half truths'.
In the meantime, Zerosurge forgets to mention that a transient bypasses the series mode protector via safety ground wire. Which is better - series mode protectors or plug-in shunt mode protectors? At least the $100 Zerosurge product does supplement an effectively earthed 'whole house' protector (and provides other advantages). The traditional $15 or $50 power strip (or UPS) protector does nothing effective for one simple and obvious reason - all but no earth ground. No earth ground means plug-in protectors are ineffective as well as overpriced and undersized. And then we have those lights. Zerosurge pictures even demonstrate the problems.
Choreboy wrote:

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Rudy demonstrated that a $3 retail power strip with some $0.10 components sold for how much money? A protector, so grossly undersized, was damaged by the same tiny transient that could not overwhelm a computer's internal protection.
For that matter, almost $100 for the equivalent protector from Monster Cable would also provide superior protection? How many joules on that APC? Price does not say the APC protected anything. Damage says it protected nothing. Joules may explain why a tiny transient could damage the overpriced protector. Rudy provides no facts that say an APC did anything except what it was suppose to do: fail quickly to promote protection myths. An undersized protector failed. Others then assume protector failure (which violates manufacturer data sheets) is normal. Then recommend that grossly undersized (ineffective) product. Only proves one can even sell snake oil to just about anyone.
Rudy wrote:

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"LN 330V LG 330V NG 330V" simply says that up to 330 volt transients of any type can directly confront the appliance and will be ignored by the protector. Just another reason why appliances must have internal protection. It does not say which type of transients above 330 volts will be seen.
Protectors (if I remember correctly) must list these threshold or let-through voltages AND must also list their joules to obtain a UL approval. Grossly undersized plug-in protectors often hope you will overlook the joules rating. Joules determine a protector's life expectancy. A protector that fails on the first transient is grossly undersized - ineffective.
Described in that Tucson home is what should be installed in all new buildings. Ufer grounding is one of the most effective earthing methods. A 10 foot earth ground rod is sufficient for human safety. But for transistor safety, a better earth ground means superior transistor safety. An Ufer ground costs so little and does so much. But it means the protection system (earthing) must be planned before footing are poured. Better protection that costs so little starts with the very first construction activity - when footing for the foundation are constructed. Unfortunately, we still build new homes as if the transistor did not exist.
Rudy wrote:

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w_tom wrote:

A $50 microwave contains a dike but a $100 protector doesn't?

They discussed it for me.

Mine was insufficient with primary and secondary protection.

What frequencies are most destructive? A car radio doesn't pick up a surge from a building's grounding system because the car isn't grounded to it (or to earth).

Did you ever read where lightning kills a whole herd of cows standing under a tree? That's the ground surge. That's why in a thunderstorm you should not stand near a tall tree and not lie down but crouch with your feet together.

The Telco repairman told me their lightning damage usually comes from surges brought to homes by the power company's ground. Last week a retired lineman verified that the ground wire will bring in lightning surges from many miles around.

To the contrary, the power company recommends a three-point ground. The lineman had to install one at his house because lightning surges kept destroying his well pump.

My car has no earth ground. It has sat through many thunderstorms wih no damage to its electronics. The lack of an earth ground can mean a static shock for humans.

If it hadn't been for those two ground rods (installed by two utilities) my computer would have been fine. If you are grounded, you need proper bonding.

I'm glad you asked. I went through my TV and my stereo to see what parts had been zapped. The list was so long that I threw the appliances away.

The telephone ground had nothing to do with my stereo or TV. The only thing that killed them was voltage between hot and neutral, which got by my whole-house protector.
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Again look at what goes inside a grossly overpriced plug-in protector. To repeat it again: Take a $3 (retail) power strip. Add some $0.10 components. Sell it as a surge protector under the Monster Cable brand name for upwards of $100. That's right. Ineffective protectors are undersized to protect a profit margin; not the transistors.
Many spend massive money on plug-in protectors so grossly undersized as to fail on the first transient. Failure on a first transient means ineffective protection. And yet some consumers actually worship that at $100, it must be good. Monster Cable also sells cheap wire with connectors color gold. People also foolishly spend $50 and $100 for speaker wire only because Monster colored it gold. Then myth purveyors declare gold Monster Cable will not corrode. Lying by telling half truths. Amazing how people use price as if it was science proof.
The $50 microwave has significant protection. Any $0.10 components that would be effective inside that $100 protector are already inside the $50 microwave. The microwave's internal protection could be overwhelmed if a 'whole house' protector - the secondary protection system - is not installed. Properly installed. The microwave remains at same or higher risk if plugged into a $100 power strip protector.
Meanwhile, Zerosurge told you nothing useful about grounds. Their 'executive summary' told you enough so that you think you know about earthing. But Zerosurge did not even discuss primary and secondary protection. They said their product doesn't contaminate ground by dumping transients to ground. So what does that mean? Nothing. Total nonsense. IOW they told gobbledygook and you declared that as science fact? They know how to lie to the right people. Notice that Zerosurge did not even put one number with those 'application notes'. No numbers means what? Junk science. They wrote junk science.
Zerosurge explained all about earthing? You also believed a lying president when he hyped myths about weapons of mass destruction. WMDs also demonstrated how lies can be spin into junk science facts when the want to believe rather than first learn.
You had a 'whole house' protector. Did you have protection? What was and how was earth ground installed? You now admit that the building has two separate grounds. Therefore not effective protection. Furthermore, you don't discuss how that 'whole house' protector is earthed. Worse still, you don't even try to learn about earthing. Instead that simple paragraph from Zerosurge is everything one need know about earthing? Somehow you don't need know anything about earthing. The ground rods caused your damage.
You post as if surge protectors stop, block, or absorb surges. A surge enter on one wire, damage the stereo, then stops? Even second grade science students are taught that electricity does not work that way. You had damage to a grossly undersized plug-in protector. That says you have no effective secondary protection and may not have primary protection either. But then you actually tried to claim that earthing does not provide the protection. As long as you remain in denial, then of course you have no effective protection. Such damage is directly traceable to human failure. As long as you know because Zerosurge told you so much, then transient damage is acceptable.
You had a 'whole house' protector. But (as was posted repeatedly and not answered): was it even earthed? The protector is not protection. Earthing is the protection. Earthing - the thing repeatedly ignored. Earthing for protection was well proven even before WWII. You think some plug-in protector will stop what miles of sky could not? What kind of nonsense is that? Well you had electronics damage. IOW you had damage and still deny what is effective protection. A problem traceable when a human promotes sales brochure science.
Cows under a tree are the perfect example of multiple earth grounds. Your building that has multiple earth grounds has same problem. Four legged animals are more easily killed by lightning that strikes a tree because the cow now becomes part of the electrical circuit. Cow does not make a single point ground. Cow then becomes the electrical path of a circuit that includes the struck tree.
Did EM field from a nearby strike kill those cows? Yes when myth is taken as science fact. Those cows are cited only because some actually believe (to the embarrassment of the nation's education system) that a nearby lightning strike induced death in cows. In reality the nearby lightning strike passed right through those cows. Just another example of how multiple earth grounds also cause appliance damage.
Same concept demonstrated in a picture from the NIST. Fax machine also damaged because the building (like the cow) had multiple and separate connections to ground.
Yes a ground wire may carry transients from many miles around. So will buried pipe lines. So will utility wires that terminate in front of your house. All the more reason why you must have a single point earth ground.
For human life protection, an earth ground is necessary. No way around that. So that lightning passing through the ground does not enter the house, pass through household appliances, then leave via another ground, instead, you must have a single point earth ground. But again, same reason why a cow under the tree is harmed by lighting was demonstrated by that NIST picture at: http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html
Where did Zerosurge discuss any of this. Obviously they did not. Too complex? Not helpful for selling a product? You tell me. But Zerosurge also demonstrates how ineffective and undersized your plug-in protector was. Remember that plug-in protector you said protected a computer. Zerosurge demonstrates that even MOVs all can be removed, and the protector light says the protector is fine: http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
That protector did not protect the computer. The computer protected itself from a tiny transient. A transient too small to harm the computer could easily destroy the grossly undersized protector. Even Zerosurge pictures demonstrated ineffective plug-in protectors.
Either don't trust Zerosurge or maybe that APC protector is not what you think it was. So which is lying? Zerosurge or APC? You cannot have it both ways. Either the APC is not effective, or what you promoted from Zerosurge is not really true.
Those two ground rods for AC electric are absolutely essential to surge protection AND even so that a house does not explode. The utility does not install earthing rods. That was your responsibility as even required by the National Electrical Code. Those earth ground rod did not cause transistor damage as long as they are part of the single point earth ground. But this means you must learn about earth ground AND stop worshiping myths from those plug-in protector manufacturers.
Somehow you just know those ground rod caused damage? Did you also believe a lying president when he invented WMDs? One must believe blindly to conclude that ground rods caused damage. Absolutely no fact exist to make that wild assumption. Furthermore, those myths have no numbers. But somehow you just know anyway - just like those who believed a lying president when the numbers were saying something completely different.
Somehow you know those ground rods cause your damage? Fine. First define the complete electrical circuit. To conclude ground rods caused the damage, you cannot just say "a lineman said this". That is hearsay. Define the electric circuit created by those ground rods. You cannot. Again, you have made assumptions rather than first learn facts.
Problems with your reasoning demonstrated FOUR different ways.
Assumed: a voltage between AC hot and neutral caused that stereo damage. If true, the list of damage components would be quite short and only where the power cord connects. Stereo would have been easily repaired. But to have a long list of damage, then a destructive electrical circuit had to pass across the stereo. Destructive transients take the long path when seeking earth ground. Typically destructive transients enter on 'either or both' hot and neutral wire. Transients leave on some other conductive path. If a transient entered on hot and left on neutral, then the list of damaged components would be quite short - and easily repaired. You had extensive damage which mean it was a transient those plug-in protectors don't even claim to protect from. 'Too many damaged' components because transient entered on AC mains and exited elsewhere.
Let's assume a transient entered on hot and left on neutral. The typically destructive transients don't enter that way. But let's assume a transient comes down the hot wire seeking what? Earth ground. What does a plug-in protector do for this type of transient? Shunts the transient to neutral wire. Now the transient is seeking earth ground, destructively through appliance, from both hot and neutral wire. The adjacent plug-in protector has provided more destructive paths to earth via the adjacent appliance. Welcome to the world of ineffective plug-in protectors - that don't even claim to protect from this - the typically destructive transient. Plug-in protectors can even provide destructive paths through an adjacent appliance.
Third example. Again, let's assume the transient entered via hot wire and left via neutral wire. Then those earth ground rods (that you blamed) were not involved in stereo damage. Your assumptions are wild speculation AND they contradict each other. Which is it? Damage enters on hot wire and left on neutral wire? Or the utility and code required earth ground rods put a surge into your stereo - via a wire those ground rods don't even connect to. Those earthing rods did not contribute to any damage if they had been part of single point earthing. But then you don't even demonstrate a circuit path for your claims.
And fourth is the little problem of where the electricity went to after it left stereo on neutral wire. Where on the neutral wire is the rest of a complete electrical circuit? Just another problem with "the transient entered on hot wire and left on neutral wire" theory. It has no science fact to support what is speculation hyped into fact - just like weapons of mass destruction. Where did current leaving the damage stereo then go via neutral wire?
A building wire picks up radio frequencies because it is grounded? Do you invent these things or do you have a source? A car radio does not receive those frequencies because it is not grounded? So the car radio does not play music and review news updates - because it is not grounded. Which is it? Either they both receive those frequencies or neither does. How does household wiring create thousands of volts from the same radio frequency source that does not even create a destructive 10 volts inside the car radio? You listen to too much speculation hyped into "this must be true" fact. Exactly how a president could lie about WMDs. Most damning, where are your numbers? They don't exist, do they.
That plug-in protector did nothing but self destruct so that you would recommend it to the world. Its called a scam. Somehow you have twisted a grossly undersized and overprice protector into effective protection. You had a 'whole house' protector. Therefore you assumed it was protection. Again, and again, you repeatedly ignore - outrightly avoid, learning about THE most essential component in a protection system: earth ground. Your own speculations contradict themselves. Why? You are promoting myths. And you deny what is effective protection.
Choreboy wrote:

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