need to do that.
wiring project, safely.
It's actually a real joy to see the comprehension on someone's face when I'm teaching them how things work. I've always tried to explain why it should be installed a certain way and not just how. I figure that the more a feller understands about that mysterious electricity, the safer he's going to be. ^_^
TDD
As with so many things, it's important to keep a healthy level of fear and concern. Lack of, leads to dangerous mistakes.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus
It's actually a real joy to see the comprehension on someone's face when I'm teaching them how things work. I've always tried to explain why it should be installed a certain way and not just how. I figure that the more a feller understands about that mysterious electricity, the safer he's going to be. ^_^
TDD
I have read nothing that is not compliant with previous codes, that were likely in effect when the wiring was done.
Actually sounds like switch legs. Code says you have to tape stripe the white on a switch leg but I don't think I have ever seen one like that that I didn't tape myself. :(
So the answer to the OP's question, no you can't, because there isn't a neutral in that box.
Another consideration is that a recep in a bathroom is now required by code to be on a 20A circuit - if there is currently no recep in there I am assuming that the lights and fan are on a general lighting circuit which is likely 15A and shared with other rooms on this floor, both of which would preclude you using that wiring for your new recep. The right way to do this is to just pull a new 12/2 homerun to your breaker box and use that for a GFCI receptacle in the bathroom. Whether that much work is worth it really depends on how problematic that's going to be (is there an open ceiling in the basement directly under where you want this receptacle?)
good luck,
nate
Are you using incandescent lights in the fixtures? You are probably returning the current of the hair dryer to neutral through the light bulbs. Definitely not the way you want to leave it!
nate
Short answer, no.
Long answer, no, because you have no idea what the voltage across any load plugged into the recep will be because of the light bulb(s) in series with the neutral, which will drop the voltage some amount below nominal, that amount being dependent on the load connected to the recep and the wattage/resistance of the light bulb. A recep should always have full 120V at all times, that is, the wires go straight to the breaker or fuse box with no interruptions (other than splices.)
There are times when you might want to use a light bulb in series with a load (e.g. powering up an old tube radio for the first time) but residential wiring is not one of them.
As I said in a previous post, "doing it right" is likely going to involve a 12/2 homerun to the panel and a new 20A breaker.
good luck
nate
Me either, it's a garden variety 4 way setup. All the OP needs to do is splice through the three colors and connect the motion detectors according to their diagram and it should work.
Oops, wrong thread, (lol), but same answer. Garden variety single pole switch legs, where feed resides at the device being switched. No legal, safe way to make an outlet work without the proper neutral
Hide quoted text -
What if you got a neutral to the switch box like this. Go to the fan motor and re-wire it so it goes:
from circuit hot to one lead of motor from other lead of motor to bathroom switch from other side of switch back to neutral where fan is
You now have a neutral in the switch box. And you have the hot from the other switch, which is on the same circuit. Which is what you need for the outlet.
Is there anything wrong with that?
I didn't know that it was actually code. Of the thousands of single pole switches I've seen wired over the years, I've practically never seen one remarked, and I'd say that of those that were clearly installed by electricians, the white is almost always the hot to the switch. I can't say the same for 3 ways. Most of what I see, and what I do, is use white and red for travelers and black for commons. It seem that at some point in the 50's -60's, it was standard to use the red as the commons.
This OP seems a bit odd in that he first does work that he's totally clueless about, then later asks questions as to why it doesn't work properly. I think Doug Miller treats him properly.
quoted text -
You mean, other than it being a rube (lol)? It would work of course, unless there was a possible GFCI in the circuit to the fan, but you can't steal hots from one cable and neutrals from another, and you can't typically break a neutral through the switch.
The code actually has an opinion. The re-marked white "shall only be used for the supply to the switch", which is almost the same as what you said (200.7-C-1). (This appears to be a relic from when you you could use a white wire - not re-marked - as the supply to a switch.)
Is a traveler a "supply to the switch"?
============================= The OP does not appear to like the answers here and has posted his question at alt.engineering.electrical.
Perhaps he could use a neutral-to-air adapter.
l- Hide quoted text -
If I understand you correctly....
First off, you'd be switching the nuetral, which is not allowed.
Second, we don't know for sure if the light and fan are on the same circuit. I haven't gone back through the entire thread, but I don't recall the OP ever stating that the 2 devices were on the same circuit.
Unless the code has changed very, very recently, it is permissible to have more than one circuit in the same switch box.
ral- Hide quoted text -
Well, I guess that takes care of that.
"They bothe have their own hot wire to it. The bot are tuned off by the same breaker. That much I know. "
But, per above, it doesn't matter.
======
+1 on the re-marking always required.I can't imagine why anyone would not take the little bit of extra time to remark a white that is being used as a hot. For the little effort that is required, it allows anyone who comes along later to have a little more confidence that the circuit is wired correctly. I think it adds an air of "quality" to the installation. The next person that comes along can look at it and say "OK, I'm pretty sure I know what's going on here because the installer took the time to mark the wire for me."
quoted text -
The code does not allow the switch in the neutral.
The code requires all circuit conductors to be in the same cable or raceway (or multiple cables run together with conditions).
I dug out the old code books. A white conductor (not re-marked) was allowed as a hot feed to a switch (but not the switch leg) in the 1996 NEC (in effect to the 2002 NEC). This was changed in the 2002 NEC to what it is now.
Under the 1996 NEC the hot feed to the first 3-way could be white (not re-marked). Far as I know for all other wires in the switch circuit the white should have been re-marked.
Under the current NEC I don't think a traveler is a "supply to the switch" and, if true, a 3-wire to the 3-way switch that returns back to the light would not be allowed (which is absurd). Presumably the re-marked white should be a traveler under the current code. IMHO the
2002 revision should have just eliminated any reference to switch circuits (re-marking always required).
switch wires that you know nothing about. If you do know something about line voltage switch wires, you'd know that you typically don't switch neutrals, so regardless of the colors,markers etc., you'd know it's going to be hot, or at least you'd expect it to be hot.
=======
switch wires that you know nothing about. If you do know something about l ine voltage switch wires, you'd know that you typically don't switch neutra ls, so regardless of the colors,markers etc., you'd know it's going to be h ot, or at least you'd expect it to be hot.-
Oh, I agree...
My point was that if the installer went to the trouble to mark the wire, then the odds are that he *didn't* switch the neutral. It's not going to make me do anything less safe, but I would feel a little bit comfortable that I'm not going to be suddenly suprised by what else I find in the box.
Do you feel/act differently when you open a box that is neatly installed with wires that are the proper lengths, connected with the right sized wire nuts, pigtails done right vs. a boxed crammed with too much wire, duct taped connections and a piece of bell wire holding the switch to the box because the screw head snapped off?
That's all I'm saying. If someone goes through the trouble to mark the white wire, then I get the feeling that the person cared enough to hopefully do other things right.
switch wires that you know nothing about. If you do know something about line voltage switch wires, you'd know that you typically don't switch neutrals, so regardless of the colors,markers etc., you'd know it's going to be hot, or at least you'd expect it to be hot.-
I get your point and I agree. I guess what I'm saying is that as a professional, I don't need to see a black marker on a white switch leg, to tell me that it was done correctly, but you are correct in that I can determine this by other aspects of the workmanship. I do a lot of work where people have illegally finished their basements, and now need a C/O to sell their houses. In my area this is a procedure that requires several inspectors,contractors, and architects to rectify. For my part in obtaining an as built certificate of compliance for the wiring, I meet with a certified electrical inspector and together we examine the place to see if it's ready to burst into flames or is pretty much OK. We literally don't even need to open a box to know what we're going to find. Just by the placement of the outlets and switches, and the appearance of any visible cables, and we know if the installer had a clue.
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.