Electric Range/Oven wiring questions

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Since the GFCI looks for an unbalance betwee the current going out on the hot lead and the current coming back on the neutral/ ground, if the hot lead going to an appliance should somehow short to the stove body or the kitchen faucet, or something, there will be an unbalance and the GFCI should trip.
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On Jun 9, 3:10 pm, The Daring Dufas <the-daring-du...@stinky- finger.net> wrote:

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Very good point!!!
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On 6/9/2013 8:48 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

A couple of weekends ago we had overnight guests. On Saturday morning SWMBO was using most of the main counter making batter for pancakes and waffles. A stand mixer, a hand mixer, bowls, ingredients, etc.
I pulled out the waffle iron and stood there looking for a place to set it up and start cooking. Ah, look there next to the range. Look at the empty counter space. Too bad the only outlet on that wall is the one behind the refrigerator. It sure would have been convenient to have a convenience outlet on the range so I didn't annoy the missus by crowding into her prep space.
That same next-to-the-range counter space would be a convenient place to put the bread maker and my cooks-to-slow slow cooker during the occasional times that I pull them out of storage.
As I said earlier in this thread, the duct work for the second floor runs up the wall behind the range, specifically where the open counter space is between the range and the fridge. I'd love to add an outlet, but it would have to be a surface mount and I find them extremely unattractive.
If my range had a convenience outlet, it would certainly see its share of use.
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I just got back from my local Home Depot not more than 15 minutes ago.
I did check out their stoves, and MOST of them had one convenience outlet. However, all the stoves with convenience outlets had them located on the TOP of the console, either on the left side or the right side; not at the front on the panel between the console and the cooktop where they were most commonly found years ago.
There were lots of stoves that didn't have any convenience outlets, but most had one. I didn't see any that had two.
But, when I asked the salesman at Home Depot "Do you have any electric ranges WITHOUT a convenience outlet?" His response to me was "Why would it be important to you NOT to have an extra plug-in on your stove?", and I thought "Exactly!". For the $2 the darn thing costs the manufacturer to provide, why NOT put two of them on every stove? How many things can you think of in a kitchen that need to be plugged in? Microwave oven, toaster, coffee maker, electric kettle, electric frying pan, electric can opener, coffee maker, food processor, slow cooker, coffee maker, etc. You simply can't have too many electric outlets in a kitchen.
Anyhow, Mr. RBM: You said:

Could you pease give us the phone number of that Home Depot store? I have a long distance calling card that allows me to phone anywhere in Canada or the USA for 4.3 cents per minute, and it's worth 4.3 cents to me to confirm that what you're saying is true.
The Home Depot store here in Winnipeg is the one near Polo Park shopping center and their phone number is (204) 779-0703.
--
nestork

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On 6/9/2013 3:39 PM, nestork wrote:

Maybe this is a Canadian thing. Now I'm even more curious for others in the U.S. to look. I looked at 17 free standing ranges in the Southeast, NY Home depot, and not one had a receptacle.
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On 6/9/2013 2:33 PM, RBM wrote:

It is sounding like a Canadian thing to me.
In the US an electric range receptacle would probably not have to be GFCI protected (not countertop). But would you want an accessible kitchen receptacle without GFCI protection (and in a grounded appliance)?
You could add GFCI protection at the range, but that costs more than $2.
An ordinary receptacle on the range has to have a fuse or circuit breaker. Where do they put that?
------------------------ The common 3 lite outlet testers don't have a clue if there is both a real neutral and ground. Ground connected to a neutral shows up as good. They also will show a rather high resistance (ineffective) ground connection as good. I have a tester that will detect improper ground connections, but it puts a test current on the ground and looks at the N-G voltage.
------------------------- The feature on a GFCI that detects a downstream N-G connection is interesting. If there is a N-G connection and you have current on the neutral conductor, the alternate path on the ground wire will trip the GFCI. The 'feature' will trip the GFCI with no current. It is done with a current transformer around the H and N that tries to push current downstream. If there is a N-G connection enough current is pushed to trip the GFCI. Also works if the GFCI is reverse wired H-N. If the H (which is wired as a N) is connected to G it will trip the GFCI.
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On 6/10/2013 1:12 PM, bud-- wrote:

Yeah, I tested one today to see what would happen with various wiring scenarios. Clearly, the yellow plug in testers are very dumb. The ground fault can be connected to a hot leg and anything that creates a return path to the neutral buss, and work

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I was in HD in NJ yesterday and checked. Not a single stove with a receptacle. I didn't count how many they had, but would estimate it at about the 17 or so that you saw at your HD.
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On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 05:29:01 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

I would think that it depends on whether the controls are along the front, or across the back.
My 1987 gas range with an OTR microwave has the controls along the front. It has a clock, timer, oven light, etc. No receptacle.
Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).
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,

Apparently not, since HD had plenty of both. More with controls on the back. Not one had a receptacle.

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On 6/11/2013 8:29 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

I'm definitely leaning toward it being a Canada thing, however even if I go to HD Canada I can't find any listed online that have outlets listed in their specs.
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On 6/9/2013 3:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Yeah, but it would be even more convenient if you had the currently required counter outlets. My guess is that most people today have adequate counter outlets to the degree that the range manufacturers don't find the desire to have them anymore.
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On 6/9/2013 4:23 PM, RBM wrote:

Through the upgrades that I've done to the main counter area, I believe that I have all of the required counter outlets in that area.
On the wall where the range and fridge are, there was no counter top when I moved in, just empty space between the two appliances where the former owners kept their garbage can. I built an 18" base cabinet to hold the garbage can and to provide a little counter space next to the range. The range that was there at the time had a convenience outlet, so I didn't need to add an outlet above the counter. My new range doesn't have one, so now I'm without power for that counter. If you add a 18" base cabinet as I did, are you required to add an outlet above it?
Why the former owners chose to live for 30 years without counter space next to their range is beyond me. I built the cabinet within weeks of moving in. Of course, that same family chose to look down over the backyard from 2 side by side double hung windows, requiring them to walk to front of the house and then around the back to access the yard. The first summer I was in the house I replaced the windows with a sliding glass door, built a deck and stairs down to the yard. 30 years later, I still thank myself for building the deck.
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On 6/9/2013 5:29 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

In my opinion, you do what you need, it's your house. The Nec however requires an outlet at any kitchen counter space 12" or larger, and no point along a counter space can you be more than 24" from an outlet.
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What does "at counter space mean"? If a standard height outlet (~12" to center) behind the fridge is less than 24” from the counter top does that meet code or does the outlet need to be above the counter and/or accessible from the counter?
I'm guessing it has to be above the counter.
BTW...Mine isn't within 24”...I'm just curious.
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On 6/9/2013 7:44 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

It means above the counter top, but no more than 20" above it. It has to be accessible so one behind the refrigerator doesn't count. Even if you have one of these enclosures built on the counter top for something like a toaster, which has an outlet inside it,they call them garage doors, they too don't meet the requirement. If you have a piece of unbroken counter space 4' 1", you would need two receptacles
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On 6/9/2013 7:44 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

There is an exception for people with disabilities that allows the outlets to be installed in the face of the base cabinets
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According to page 16 of this manual, the convenience outlet is located on the top of backguard so it might just be hard to see in the pictures.
http://media.datatail.com/docs/manual/108351_en.pdf
However, it's interesting that GE doesn't list that model number on its website. I wonder if it's discontinued but still available in stores.
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