That's not the reason for our disagreement, you ass. I never suggested anyone
should ignore local ordinances. We disagree because you claim that multiwire
branch circuits are inherently dangerous -- and that just isn't true.
Please explain how you can misinstall a double-pole breaker.
No, you just kept referring to the wrong voltages -- more evidence that you
have no idea what you're talking about.
Oh, so you *have* read the Code then? How come you didn't know that it
permitted multiwire branch circuits? Why did you claim it prohibited them?
You are the *only* person in this thread making this claim. Edison circuits
are explicitly permitted by the NEC, and -- subject to correction by our
friends north of the border -- I believe explicity *required* by the CEC for
kitchen appliance circuits.
These facts together suggest to any thinking person that you are mistaken.
Google is not always your friend. Some links are totally irrelevant. All
other concerns are addressed by changes in the 2008 NEC.
Maybe if you read and understood the links....
But your ignorance is bliss.
Your link does not support that.
And audiophiles also like gold plated speaker wire.
which addressees any problem in this link.
And a competent electrician will verify all wires in an enclosure are
dead. This is rather easily done with a "non-contact" voltage indicator.
required starting in the 2008 NEC. In some cases it was required before
http://www.mikeholt.com/technical.php?id=nec/unformatted/215-240&type=u&title=NEC%20Articles%20215%20through%20240 Totally irrelevant - nothing on "Edison circuits".
Talks about "Edison base" fuses and circuit breakers that screw into
http://www.mikeholt.com/technical.php?id=nec/unformatted/215-240&type=u&title=NEC%20Articles%20215%20through%20240 Repeat of the irrelevant link above.
Just continued delusions about multiwire branch circuits (Edison circuits).
Maybe you could write a code change proposal. I am sure it would get the
What he is describing is an Edsion circuit, aka shared neutral, and it
is completely compliant with the current code. Why not spend 5 mins
googling, instead of continuing to make an ass of yourself?
Uh, huh and you will also measure 120V between either hot and the
shared neutrals. Which is why it's an Edison circuit.
If that were true, the same problem would exist with ANY double ganged
breaker, regardless of what it is hooked to.
And now you've just told him to take an Edison circuit that completely
conforms to the current NEC and change it into one that does not.
Also, I'd say it's reckless to be telling him to change ANYTHING until
a qualified electrician actuall goes there and figures out what is
Clearly you're confused on this too. He made it clear the portable
hot tub is 120V, 20amps. Ever see a 220V hot tub that was only
And even more stupidity. An Edison circuit, completely conforming to
the current NEC sure as hell doesn't explain what he is observing.
And again, suggesting that the simple cure is go to two seperate
breakers to fix a a serious fire hazard is stupid and reckless.
Let's add in that you didn't even tell him that if he screws around
with the existing ganged breakers he needs to make sure he keeps the
two breakers on OPPOSiITE phases or he will most definitely have
changed a code compliant Edison circuite into a fire trap.
Bottom line, once again, this guy needs to get a pro in and stop
listening to clueless posters who won't even do a simple google to
learn what an Edison circuit is.
Yup. I have the top 8 (4 on each side, has a little '30' showing) ganged in
sets of 2.
1/3- Range (once electric, this one now relabeled Garage and runs a 240 for
previous owners power tools, left in 'off' position' except when a few
contractors needed it. Works fine when turned on)
6/8- Old AC (a 240 outlet near the ceiling where once a wall 'whole house
AC' was, also 'off' but tests fine)
Nothing else is ganged but that doesnt mean it's not done but wrongly marked
(which is against code I gather). The few times and electrician worked on
our house though, they've not found any circuits that were not as they
should be, just that some are still older 2 prongs and to fix thse areas of
the house, they need to snake new wires (assume ground which is in place in
part of the house but not all?).
Due to lack of background experience, this is one thing Don and I do not
DIY. There's a time when it's best to get a professional. This is one of
them. We are sure all the bad stuff the Bos'un who owned the house before
us has been removed or *properly* dead ended (electrician used to check
all). What we need to do is fix the remaining ones to 3 prong *properly*
(system ready for it and about 2/3 of the house uses it) then have 4 lines
run to the back porch to properly handle a portion of the now dead ended
outlets out there. Foolish Bos'un had run 19 outlets off only 2 lines on
the back porch. They've been properly detached leaving only 4 correctly
done ones working.
Electrician said we have plenty of excess and don't even need to sub-panel
if that is all we want although that would be very easy. Apparently the
original 100 amp panel (in a bedroom closet, nothing hooked to it now) can
be easily re-vamped in which case he'd re-string all the back porch and
lights across the back of the house off it. What that sub-panel will do
apparently is let him easier (cheaper) add also more outlets to the kitchen
plus properly power even more of the detached 15 back porch outlets.
We are pondering options. No rush. Just looking over where we want new
outlets added (neither bathroom has an outlet).
Hi Twayne, thanks to you all for your advice. I am having an
electrician on Monday come out if I can't fix this. I have figured out
now that the junction box on the wall that has the conduit going to
the furnace is actually where the 115v comes in and ties off to the
furnace which is 115v. The little transformer on the front of the
junction box is for the door bell. I killed the power to the furnace
(which is on its own breaker) and the (2) 20 amp breakers that is
branched together and opened the box. My meter measured 0 volts. I hit
the breaker and got 115v so I felt confident this my power. I killed
the power and un-tied everything in the box and went around with my
meter and got 0v. I flipped back on the (2) 20amp breaker and re-
measured and still got 0. I went and turned on my hot tub (120v) and
then the box started buzzing and then the conduit started getting hot
again. I double checked that this is the only power source to my
furnace. So I turned off the hot tub. Went back measuring everything
and 0v. I am getting 2.4volt when I read the incoming neutral to
ground. Is that normal? I then proceed to to start to undo the
conduit from the top of the box on there was a spark . I am now
getting convinced this box is somehow screwed in the wall shorting
other wires going down the wall. Anything else to look for? I will
undo the pole connecting the (2) 20amp breakers as I am sure you right
that one can't pull the other and it should be tripping a breaker. I
will be keeping both breakers off till I get the guy out so stop with
call the guy yesterday please. I am the type that likes to figure
stuff out like a lot of us, but I will admit I am stumped.
FZ, nice to see you are safe. Now keep safe and use the electricial. Twayne
here is really FAR off the bat.
Guffaw. Dangerous but funny stuff even *I* know better than.
Electrician please and just turn off the hot tub and unplug. There's
something wrong but Twayne's advice is down right dangerous. Even the others
said get an electrician in. If not sure what a 'ganged circuit' is or how
to test it, this aint time to die learning how based on newsgroup nitwits
Yes, he is "off the bat". For one thing, there is technically no such
thing as a "ganged breaker" - they are technically Double Pole
-"common trip" breakers - and if one side trips, unless someone has
tampered and put some kind of restraint on it, BOTH sides WILL trip.
If they don't, the breaker is defective.
There are also Twin breakers - or "thin-twins" that are NOT linked,
and NOT common trip, and can NOT be installed to supply 220 (or 230 or
240, whatever you want to cal it) They are supplied to get more
circuits into a panel and are illegat to use on split receptacles or
"edison" circuits under NEC2008.
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