Electric Problem or overloading the circuit

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That's not the reason for our disagreement, you ass. I never suggested anyone should ignore local ordinances. We disagree because you claim that multiwire branch circuits are inherently dangerous -- and that just isn't true.
[snip]

Please explain how you can misinstall a double-pole breaker.

No, you just kept referring to the wrong voltages -- more evidence that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Oh, so you *have* read the Code then? How come you didn't know that it permitted multiwire branch circuits? Why did you claim it prohibited them?

You are the *only* person in this thread making this claim. Edison circuits are explicitly permitted by the NEC, and -- subject to correction by our friends north of the border -- I believe explicity *required* by the CEC for kitchen appliance circuits.
These facts together suggest to any thinking person that you are mistaken.
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Twayne wrote:

Google is not always your friend. Some links are totally irrelevant. All other concerns are addressed by changes in the 2008 NEC.
Maybe if you read and understood the links....
But your ignorance is bliss.

Your link does not support that.
And audiophiles also like gold plated speaker wire.

which addressees any problem in this link. And a competent electrician will verify all wires in an enclosure are dead. This is rather easily done with a "non-contact" voltage indicator.

required starting in the 2008 NEC. In some cases it was required before that.

http://www.mikeholt.com/technical.php?id=nec/unformatted/215-240&type=u&title=NEC%20Articles%20215%20through%20240 Totally irrelevant - nothing on "Edison circuits". Talks about "Edison base" fuses and circuit breakers that screw into those fuseholders.

http://www.mikeholt.com/technical.php?id=nec/unformatted/215-240&type=u&title=NEC%20Articles%20215%20through%20240 Repeat of the irrelevant link above.
Just continued delusions about multiwire branch circuits (Edison circuits).
Maybe you could write a code change proposal. I am sure it would get the appropriate consideration.
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What he is describing is an Edsion circuit, aka shared neutral, and it is completely compliant with the current code. Why not spend 5 mins googling, instead of continuing to make an ass of yourself?

Uh, huh and you will also measure 120V between either hot and the shared neutrals. Which is why it's an Edison circuit.


If that were true, the same problem would exist with ANY double ganged breaker, regardless of what it is hooked to.

And now you've just told him to take an Edison circuit that completely conforms to the current NEC and change it into one that does not. Also, I'd say it's reckless to be telling him to change ANYTHING until a qualified electrician actuall goes there and figures out what is wrong.

Clearly you're confused on this too. He made it clear the portable hot tub is 120V, 20amps. Ever see a 220V hot tub that was only 20amps?

And even more stupidity. An Edison circuit, completely conforming to the current NEC sure as hell doesn't explain what he is observing. And again, suggesting that the simple cure is go to two seperate breakers to fix a a serious fire hazard is stupid and reckless. Let's add in that you didn't even tell him that if he screws around with the existing ganged breakers he needs to make sure he keeps the two breakers on OPPOSiITE phases or he will most definitely have changed a code compliant Edison circuite into a fire trap.
Bottom line, once again, this guy needs to get a pro in and stop listening to clueless posters who won't even do a simple google to learn what an Edison circuit is.
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<trader4@ wrote "Twayne" wrote:
(snips)

Yup. I have the top 8 (4 on each side, has a little '30' showing) ganged in sets of 2.
2/4- Dryer
1/3- Range (once electric, this one now relabeled Garage and runs a 240 for previous owners power tools, left in 'off' position' except when a few contractors needed it. Works fine when turned on)
5/7- HVAC
6/8- Old AC (a 240 outlet near the ceiling where once a wall 'whole house AC' was, also 'off' but tests fine)
Nothing else is ganged but that doesnt mean it's not done but wrongly marked (which is against code I gather). The few times and electrician worked on our house though, they've not found any circuits that were not as they should be, just that some are still older 2 prongs and to fix thse areas of the house, they need to snake new wires (assume ground which is in place in part of the house but not all?).
Due to lack of background experience, this is one thing Don and I do not DIY. There's a time when it's best to get a professional. This is one of them. We are sure all the bad stuff the Bos'un who owned the house before us has been removed or *properly* dead ended (electrician used to check all). What we need to do is fix the remaining ones to 3 prong *properly* (system ready for it and about 2/3 of the house uses it) then have 4 lines run to the back porch to properly handle a portion of the now dead ended outlets out there. Foolish Bos'un had run 19 outlets off only 2 lines on the back porch. They've been properly detached leaving only 4 correctly done ones working.
Electrician said we have plenty of excess and don't even need to sub-panel if that is all we want although that would be very easy. Apparently the original 100 amp panel (in a bedroom closet, nothing hooked to it now) can be easily re-vamped in which case he'd re-string all the back porch and lights across the back of the house off it. What that sub-panel will do apparently is let him easier (cheaper) add also more outlets to the kitchen plus properly power even more of the detached 15 back porch outlets.
We are pondering options. No rush. Just looking over where we want new outlets added (neither bathroom has an outlet).
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Hi Twayne, thanks to you all for your advice. I am having an electrician on Monday come out if I can't fix this. I have figured out now that the junction box on the wall that has the conduit going to the furnace is actually where the 115v comes in and ties off to the furnace which is 115v. The little transformer on the front of the junction box is for the door bell. I killed the power to the furnace (which is on its own breaker) and the (2) 20 amp breakers that is branched together and opened the box. My meter measured 0 volts. I hit the breaker and got 115v so I felt confident this my power. I killed the power and un-tied everything in the box and went around with my meter and got 0v. I flipped back on the (2) 20amp breaker and re- measured and still got 0. I went and turned on my hot tub (120v) and then the box started buzzing and then the conduit started getting hot again. I double checked that this is the only power source to my furnace. So I turned off the hot tub. Went back measuring everything and 0v. I am getting 2.4volt when I read the incoming neutral to ground. Is that normal? I then proceed to to start to undo the conduit from the top of the box on there was a spark . I am now getting convinced this box is somehow screwed in the wall shorting other wires going down the wall. Anything else to look for? I will undo the pole connecting the (2) 20amp breakers as I am sure you right that one can't pull the other and it should be tripping a breaker. I will be keeping both breakers off till I get the guy out so stop with call the guy yesterday please. I am the type that likes to figure stuff out like a lot of us, but I will admit I am stumped.
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"fzbuilder" wrote "Twayne" wrote:

FZ, nice to see you are safe. Now keep safe and use the electricial. Twayne here is really FAR off the bat.

Guffaw. Dangerous but funny stuff even *I* know better than.

Electrician please and just turn off the hot tub and unplug. There's something wrong but Twayne's advice is down right dangerous. Even the others said get an electrician in. If not sure what a 'ganged circuit' is or how to test it, this aint time to die learning how based on newsgroup nitwits ok?
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In typed:

Nope, not at all. You must have a comprehension issue, too. That means you don't get the proper meaning out of the words you read, in case it's too tekkie for you.

Definitely so with a ganged breaker, which you snipped. It's been proven physically in fact.

So did I, you poor non-comprehending dufus. It's easy to make unsupported statements. Like, I'm not so sure you ever even graduated from grade school. Maroon is definitely your color.
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"Twayne" wrote

Twayne, you lose and your best 'response' is childish insults.
Fortunately the guy listened to the rest and got in an electricain as the rest of us were telling him to do.
You are dangerous.
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wrote:

Yes, he is "off the bat". For one thing, there is technically no such thing as a "ganged breaker" - they are technically Double Pole -"common trip" breakers - and if one side trips, unless someone has tampered and put some kind of restraint on it, BOTH sides WILL trip. If they don't, the breaker is defective.
There are also Twin breakers - or "thin-twins" that are NOT linked, and NOT common trip, and can NOT be installed to supply 220 (or 230 or 240, whatever you want to cal it) They are supplied to get more circuits into a panel and are illegat to use on split receptacles or "edison" circuits under NEC2008.

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In typed:

PS - get a PRO in there ASAP!! And kill BOTH breakers and leave them OFF until the electrician gets there to straighten things out. That's a VERY DANGEROUS situation and a high saftey risk.
Twayne
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