Electric Problem or overloading the circuit

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On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 03:24:59 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

customer site and it is very consistent at 115-117 volts at both sites. Has been for years. This is in urban Waterloo Ontario and Kitchener Ontario.
Also virtually every motor or electrical device sold in North America for residential use is rated at 115 or 230 volts. In industrial and large multi unit residential applications with 3 phase power it is 120/208. Virtually everywhere else in Ontario, at least, it is 115/230 single phase.
BC Hydro specifies voltage to be within the limits of 110 to 125 volts. That is a range of 15 volts, with a center "target" voltage of 117.5

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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

FWIW, as I sit here in Austin, Texas, the power line monitor in front of me indicates that we're getting 122.8 volts from the local utility. When it's hot (i.e. when the air conditioning load is high) that can drop quite a bit. I think a nominal 117.5 is pretty close to right for the median.

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wrote:

And right now, Sunday afternoon of a mild "holiday" weekend with no industrial power usage, and very little heating requirement (compared to average for this time of year) my power in Waterloo Ontario is sitting at a relatively high 117.6 volts RMS

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wrote:

And what comes into your house must there be the standard. :-)

Not true.
A quick random sample of half a dozen of my portable power tools and kitchen appliances shows five marked "120V" and one marked "120V only". In fact, the only thing I could find in the house that's marked for 115 is an electric clock that to my certain knowledge is _at least_ forty years old.

And therefore it's the same everywhere?
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On Dec 27, 10:37 am, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

What are the USA and Canadian limits for voltage variation from a nominal of say 117 volts?
For exam[ple: Using 117v as a base; Minus 5% = 111.15 (say 112v RMS) Plus 10% = 128.70 (say 129v RMS)
And as mentioned in some installations the higher voltage can be either 230/115 volt (Usually domestically) or 208/115 (most likely commercially and/or from 3 phase supply).
We have electric baseboard heaters that came, marked; 1200 watts at 230 volts, 970 watts at 208 volts. (The V squared divided by R = W thing)
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BTW. Further to this discussion about higher mains supply voltages and permissible limits for variations these days; the topic has come up often in another news group that deals with vintage radio restoration etc. The more consistently higher voltages these days can have an impact on older radios that were operated back when on, say 115 volts or less. But which today often face 120 or higher. Again (for simplicity) doing the V squared business, the difference between say 113 volts and say 120 volts is almost a 13% increase (plus one sixth!) in power and therefore additional heat within an old radio. The radio restorers therefore use their expertise and various means to either further protect (extra fuses etc) and/or to reduce voltage to protect the older equipment components.
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No, it's not. It's an increase of 6.19%.
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Doug Miller wrote:

I think a visit to the electrical engineering and/or calculus books might be in order. Remember that the issue is power rather than just voltage.
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Right, my fault -- I was just looking at the voltage. Sorry. Brain fart.
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On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 19:07:49 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

increase in POWER would be at least 13% because the resistance stays the same, so when the voltage goes up, the current also goes up, and the power is the product of the two.
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On Dec 27, 4:29 pm, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Yes; accept the correction. It's a VOLTAGE increase (difference) of 6.19% Making the assumption that the resistance (or AC impedance) remains the same the WATTAGE will increase by approx. 13%. That should have been fairly obvious?
But the way one often explains it to the technically challenged is to first ask; "If the voltage was say 120 volts and is then doubled to 240 volts, how much more CURRENT will flow (assuming all other circuit components remain unchanged)?
The answer is obviously "Twice as much". One then says '' Well with twice the voltage and twice the current there will be four times power (wattage). Right?". (2 times volts) x (2 times amps) = 4 times volt- amps.
That usually gets them thinking and it's then possible to explain the simple math derivation from Ohm's law that Voltage squared divided by Resistance = Power (wattage).
And suggest then; so what would happen if the voltage increased by say ten percent? The answer is about 20%. i.e. 1.1 x 1.1 = 1.21 (i.e. Twenty one per-cent power increase)!
But I've met electricians who can wire a dream but must understand basic electircity in a manner different to one's own!
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On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 13:37:09 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

My US built 4 year old Tempstar furnace says for 115 volts AC operation.. One of my (2 way) radio power supplies says 117 volt AC in.. My compressor motor says 115/230 volts AC. (it is a year old). My Beam central vaccum says 115 volts. My stereo pre-amp says 117 volts AC. Heck, my model train transformer says 117 volts. Then most of my computer stuff says 84 - 240 volts AC or 100-240 VAC.
My experience is that 20 years ago, average voltage around here was much higher than it is today. 117 was low, and 123 was not uncommon. For the last 5-10 years if I see 120, it is high. 117 is common, and as low as 114 is certainly not unheard of.
My central air unit says 230 VAC.
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I've always looked at the disparate voltage ratings on the various pieces of equipment I've stumbled across in my lifetime to be the reference point for the current and wattage specifications. There has to be a reference point if that makes any sense to you. "This is a 500 watt widget." "Oh yea, at what voltage?" When I look at a piece of gear and see the voltage/wattage spec, I always know for sure without any calculation if the facilities are going to be able to power it. The stuff adds up, since I've done a lot of primary and backup generator work, I automatically think of surge and motor start loads also. So many times I have to argue with someone who wants to plug in 3 refrigerators and 2 freezers on the same circuit because the nameplates show 3 amps. ARGGGGG!
TDD
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

But its that funny Canadian stuff.
The explanation I have heard is 120/240V is the nominal supply voltage (at the service). And 115/230V is the nominal voltage at equipment (after voltage drop). (Would be interesting where 117V comes from.)
The NEC says to use 120/240 for calculations. The values for current in the NEC motor tables are for 115/230V.
IMHO arguments about what is "correct" are useless.
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wrote:

Made in the "good old USA" back in the day when USA still HAD industry.

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In (Doug

The US Grid (PSC etc) say it's 120/240 +- 5% and 60 Hz nominal over, I think, 24 hours. THOSE are the specs used transformers outputs. Not in that range? There is a problem or you're in a brownout/overvoltage mode at the grid. The misnomers come from a time when different areas of the country actually did have various nominal voltages such as 115, 117, 120, etc.
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In (Doug Miller)

No, the opportunties for such ckt is exponentially above the others.
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9snip]

I've heard 110, 115, 117, 118, 120, and 125 for one side. What I measure here is almost exactly 120 (it drops as low as 118 sometimes). I seem to remember reading it was 100 at one time.
Older people often say 110 and 220. I will when I'm talking to them, otherwise I sway 120 and 240.
[snip]
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In typed:

Oh yeah? And I suppose you totally ignore your local ordinances, don't you? I have to wonder if you didn't get dinged for it, too since you consider it such a great, wonderful thing and assumed on your own that it's what the OP had. You become more of a dunce with every post I see of yours. You're a real troll, I guess.

Nonsense is right; it's extremely easy to misinstall something; I've seen it time after time and luckily always caught it but - it's amazing the kinds of mistakes even electricians can make. They work drunk, hung over and worse sometimes, especially in Chgo when we lived there. I had one inspector out to get one guy fired at one install. Hmm, that wasn't you, was it?

I never said that wasn't so. People commonly refer to several different numbers they see on their equipment. You're a myopic egotist from the look of it; you post just to see yourself in writing.

See, there's your assumptions again, and stated as a fact this time, which makes it a lie. So now you're a liar, on top of everything else. You're getting to be fun.

No, it's not false; you are seriously misinformed of the dangers of such circuits. This is an exposure of an ignorance that plummets your credibility even further than it has been. Such a ckt could only ever be "safe" if it could never develop a fault; which it can, on top of miswiring and other possibilities you'd know if you actually knew much about it. Knowing a buzz word doesn't make you an expert in any way. Look it up.
And that has nothing to do with national vs. local codes.

Until a fault arises. Neutral pops off a stressed outlet with a poor mechanical connect, improperly protected by a ganged breaker, etc. etc. etc.. It's much more dangerous than other ckts given even the same faults in many instances. Your ignorance must really be bliss. ALL of the following make perfect sense and come from the first page of google hits. Audiophiles just abhor them!
http://www.phy.ornl.gov/divops/ESH/98-2.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_neutral http://www.mikeholt.com/technical.php?id=nec/unformatted/215-240&type=u&title=NEC%20Articles%20215%20through%20240 http://www.equitech.com/articles/enigma.html
http://www.mikeholt.com/technical.php?id=nec/unformatted/215-240&type=u&title=NEC%20Articles%20215%20through%20240
Twayne
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