Electric Code question

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On Sat, 16 May 2015 16:43:14 -0400, Stormin Mormon

Romex IS NM - NM means Non Metallic. Used to be NMW and NMD for non metallic wet and non metallic dry..
Current product is NMD90 (90C temperature rated) NMWU is direct burial cable. Loomex (Noramco) is a term replacing Romex (Southwire) in many areas - and there is a red sheithed Loomex called Heatex for use in 240 volt electric heating applications that is NMD90 2 wire with black and red conductors plus bare ground - no neutral. - referred to as Heatex. Commonly the NMD is white, the NMW is black and the Heatex is red. Other companies have different colour coding.
One "standard" is white for 14, yellow for 12, orange for 10, and black for 6 and 8, and gray for NMWU direct burial.
Blue #14 is used in Ontario for Arc-Fault protected circuits. Red 14/2 and 12/2 is used in Canada for heating circuits (used to be Orange back before 2001 when "xtra-colour" Romex hit the market from Southern Cable in Canada
So - DO NOT assume just because a wire is white, or black, or orange, it is a particular guage of wire!!!!
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typed:

Romex is a brand of NM-B wire. For the Romex brand, the color codes are the same: 12/2 is yellow; 14/2 is white. Same as it says here: http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/romex-jacket-color-codes-49/
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wrote:

Yes. I don't think I've ever seen a house out here without at least neutrals connecting teh medal boxes. For those I added a pigtail from the box to the new 3 prong outlet. But even seeing them was over 30 years ago when 2 prong outlets were still common.
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wrote:

That is the ground, not the neutral and you are creating a serious hazard using it for the neutral. (250.6)
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On Fri, 15 May 2015 16:27:29 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Don't think I've seen the Crusher propose anything on newsgroups that wasn't either dangerous, illegal, stupid, or at least 2 out of the three.
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On Fri, 15 May 2015 16:46:28 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

If leaving insults makes you feel better about yourself you've found the right place here in newsgroups. Knock yourself out and show us what a great personality you have.
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On Fri, 15 May 2015 16:27:29 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Maybe I miss understood the intent of the original question. The power into the box is a black and white wire with ground. The white is Neutral, the black is hot and the bare copper is ground. The question that was asked was whether there were " neutrals in the box in addition to the hot". I assumed, and perhaps should not have, that the question being asked was not really about the neutral wire but about the ground wire since common old wiring in the houses I've had sometimes only provided the neutral and hot but often did not provide any ground connection all the way to the plug, only to the metal box... so that was the context of my answer.
So to your statement, no, that is not correct, I am not using the ground as a neutral, I'm using the "white and black" (neutral and hot) for the power and using the ground for the ground.
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In the US, common wiring for a light switch to a light is:
-------Hot(B)------------/ --------------| | -------Neutral(W)-----+----------------| Light | ------Ground(C/G)---------------------|
Where the / represents a switch, and the + represents a wirenut in the switch box and the neutral is brought through the switch box to the light. The origin of the circuit is the circuit breaker box, or daisy chained off another switch box.
In the UK, the neutral is not brought through the switch box. Instead, the lighting circuit is run as a loop from the circuit breaker box. Only the hot and ground are brought to the switch and then to the light. The neutral goes from the light back to the loop lighting circuit where the hot was taken off.
The OPs question about neutrals being in the (light switch) box was perfectly reasonable. Usenet is a global medium. Assuming every post originates from a US point of view is... misguided.
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On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 12:10:51 AM UTC-4, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:

From what I've read, the OP's question was whether or not it was permitted by code to add a receptacle by tying it in at an existing light switch......
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Ashton Crusher wrote:

Yes, that was my question. I asked it because I don't recall seeing neutrals in a switch box. No reason there couldn't be - and I am no electrician - but more common in my experience is neutral (white) to load, hot (black) to switch, return to load (the return is physically white but functionally black and generally marked as such). Of course, all my switches are single pole, not double.
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On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 7:38:52 AM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:

The wiring style may depend on the area of the country, IDK. Here in NJ it's very typical to see neutrals in many of the switch boxes, but definitely not all. Of course all that matters is whether you have it in the one where you want to add the receptacle. And code now requires a neutral in switch boxes. I think the issue there is electronics is going into more switches, dimmers, etc where it's advantageous to have the electronics powered all the time. X10 switches, the problems trying to use them with CFL, LED, etc are an example.
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wrote:

Depends whether the lights are wired "drop switched" or "supply switched"
Drop switched has been the most common over the years, but regualatory changes are making supply switched more common - Supply switched makes a whole lot more sense and is a lot easier towork on down the road. Supply switched has 2 wire from the panel to the switch, where the white wire is wire nutted and the black is switched, feeding off to the lights.
This means when the switch is off the entire lighting (load) circuit is dead. With drop switched circuits, the wire comes from the panel to the light, then the neutral is dropped to the switch and returned to the light, so when the switch is off the load is still live, and the neutral is also live at the switch when it is turned on.
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It depends on how the fixture and switch are wired.
If the power from the panel goes to the fixture first, you can have a cable running from the fixture to the switch. In that case, the white and black wires are "both" hot wires. Power comes into the fixture box, down one of the wires to the switch, then up the other wire back to the fixture. In this situation the white wire is supposed to be marked black so it is not confused as a neutral wire. One way to identify this wiring scheme is if there is only a single cable coming into the switch box.
The better way to wire a switch is to have the power come from the panel to the switch box. Then another cable runs from the switch box to the fixture. The grounds are connected in the switch box, and the neutrals (white) are connected in the switch box. The switch connects between the two hot (black) wires. This gives you more options such as adding another light to the switch, or tapping off the supply line for an outlet. Many timers and other lighting gadgets also require a neutral in the switch box.
The method used typically depends on the logistics of the building. If the panel and switch are located on opposite sides of the switch, it is common to have power going to the fixture first. If the switch is located between the panel and the fixture, the power typically goes to the switch first.
Personally, I like to spend a few extra dollars on wire and run power to the switch first, then a cable back to the fixture. Alternatively, I use 14/3 cable between the fixture and switch. That lets me continue the hot and neutral cables to the switch and make the red wire the switched return back to the fixture.
Anthony Watson www.mountainsoftware.com www.watsondiy.com
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wrote:

On a switch loop you reidentify the white wire GOING to the switch (the hot) and the one coming from the switch is black.. This is left over from the days when it was not actually required to reidentify the white in a switch loop. That way, at the load, you are still presented with a white neutral and a black hot. If you saw a white and black wirenutted together, you knew it was going to a switch loop and in the switch location you knew the white is hot. The NFPA decided that was too much confusion for amateurs so they started requiring reidentifying the white. (96 I think but it may have been 93). The language about the reidentified white feeding the switch still remains. I would cite the article but I am 12,000 miles from my code books.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com posted for all of us...

And you didn't take me with you?
--
Tekkie *Please post a follow-up*

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wrote:

Yes, I've seen them like that. For my addition of an outlet I can only do it when the box with the light switch is also where the 14-2w/grd wiring was run as the power source for the lighting circuit. As such it could be thought of as a junction box as well as the light switch box.
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In wrote:

Your original question was about tapping into a switch box and creating an additional outlet/receptacle below or near that switch box. Part of that question was whether that is permissible under the electrical code (I assume in the USA). That code question was answered.
But, the other question was whether the switch box has a "neutral" wire in it. That's not the same as asking if the switch box has a black wire and a white wire (and a ground).
If the power goes to the switch box, with a black "hot" wire and a white "neutral" wire, you can use those two to run an outlet/receptacle from that switch box.
But, some switch boxes have a black wire and a white wire in them, but the white wire is not a neutral. That can happen when the switch box is what is called a "switch leg". By that, I mean that the power actually goes to the light fixture (not to the switch box) first and then a black and white wire are run from the light fixture down to the switch box to create what is called a "switch leg". Try Googling "switch leg". In that scenario, the black wire is connected to one side of the switch and the white wire is connected to the other side of the switch. The white wire is supposed to be marked or coded with tape or a black marker to indicate that both the black and the white wires in the switch box are the "hot" wire, and the switch is just interrupting the hot wire to turn the light off and on.
But, if only black wires are going to the two screws on the switch, and the white wire passes through the switch box without being connected to the switch, that means you do have a hot (black) wire and a neutral (white) wire in the switch box. Or, to put it another way, the power goes to the switch box first, and then to the light etc. In that case, you would have the wires that you need to run an outlet/receptacle from the switch box.
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