I recently put in a claim to ComEd here in a suburb of Chicago for a burnt out stove electric starter. It was working fine up to a short power outage and failed immediately afterwards costing me about $150 to repair. They claim there was no negligence on their part and denied payment. We have had more than our share
of power outages in my immediate area, and this one happened on a clear weather night with no high winds. I have put power surge protectors on most of my electronics but failed to cover my stove. I'm not sure it even would have helped, but I shouldn't have to put protectors on every outlet in my home. I think they owe me.
I'd forget it. I've put in numerous claims to the power company for what has basically been deteriorating survice by their neglecting the infrastructure - mostly neglecting tree trimming. Standard answer is, "Act of God" and only one claim, for a few pounds of dry ice to protect my frozen food was paid. I seriously considered taking the company to small claims court but my lawyer son said to forget it, as they would fight the claim, and "Act of God" always wins.
I have surge protectors on everything of value and bought a back up generator and power transfer box last winter.
Many years ago our power company in Raleigh NC had a severe brown out. I was home and turned off everything I could think of but a brand new sewer pump was damaged. Utility company paid for replacement and my neighbors heatpump and tons of other damage, no questions asked. Apparently they were sending half power out for about 15 minutes when systems to prevent that failed.
That's the modern american way. No one is responsible for what happens to them, they all look for someone else to blame.
Unless you can explain to me the technical reason how an outage and power restore could have caused damage to your stove, I'd say you're just farting in the wind(y city).
BTW, is it true that Chicago got that nickname not because of meteorological conditions in that area but because of all the politicians there bleating continuously?
Power outages and restores can create switching transients with peak-to-peak voltages vastly greater than the RMS voltage nominally supplied by the utility. Motors and other inductive loads have huge inrush currents at start-up, and many electronic devices are unable to deal with these surges. I have lost a number of unprotected devices.
"Movistors", "Transorbs", and back to back zener diodes are typically used in this application to clamp the transients. And there once was a time when power companies took some responsibility for the quality of the power they delivered. Alas, this no longer seems to be the case.
Which is why I installed a "whole house" transient absorber right across the output of the main circuit breaker in our home's panel.
What I was attempting to say is that there isn't any practical way for the OP to "prove" that a power company caused transient made his stove fail, and since he admits he thought about and provided protection for other devices in his home, his failing to do so for the stove should rest on his shoulders.
The power companies level of responsibility and willingness to take responsibility varies greatly by utility, state and circumstances of the event.
I've seen a case where the utility covered the cost of repair of a stereo and VCR that were damaged when the utility lost a neutral connection at the pole.
Another case a utility readily covered damages to some computer equipment that was damaged by an event that was likely a misconnected tap during the replacement of a failed distribution transformer. Amazingly enough after tripping nearly every breaker in the entire data center, the only damage was to one small router and one small network switch.
Most utilities do take the quality of the power they supply seriously and if presented with a reasonable claim that is supported by relevant data indicating it resulted from the utilities negligence in some way they will usually accept the claim without issues.
The thing to remember is that not everything is the utilities fault. A failure of their equipment would be, but they can hardly be held responsible for the results of a lightning strike or a car crash into a pole (though the at fault driver might be held responsible).
Transorbs and Zeners will do absolutely nothing to protect against a sustained "brownout".
If a compressor, or a motor, is given a fractional voltage for a sustained period of time, as often happens after a strike which requires the power grid to "boot back up", the excessive current into the device will burn out a winding...
In the past, my homeowner's insurance has covered it. Perhaps the power company will take responsibility...
But there is nothing in the world in a "transiend suppressor system" that can do diddly-squat against a sustained low voltage on a motor.....
I don't know what your problem was, and you probly don't either, but I wish you good luck.
The reason I think the power failure did me in was the circumstance that the stove ignitor worked for several years without a problem, up to and immediately before the power outage, and then failed immediately afterwards. Too much of a coincidence.
The stove starter is some kind of device that incorporates solid state circuitry. Those kinds of circuits typically cannot tolerate any swings or spikes in voltage. A surge suppresser MAY have prevented this problems, but for many electronic devices of this type, they probably don't do much good.
As I mentioned, my immediate neighbor hood (about 1 block radius) has had a long history of these power outages, more than one would expect from natural causes. The power company probably has old equipment and doesn't want to spend the money to upgrade. I consider this negligence, so their using this as a justification that there was none, doesn't have any merit. I am going to file the necessary complaints
with the proper agencies and the newspapers. ComEd is currently trying to raise our
rates about 20%, even though they are making big profits. I have no sympathies for these bandits who try to wiggle out of responsibility for poor equipment and service.
Sherw> I recently put in a claim to ComEd here in a suburb of Chicago for a burnt out
The stove igniter is not active all the time. There is no power to it unless you activate it. I don't see how power dropping out can affect it. I think you lose.
As Ed notes, an igniter is powered only when igniting and not when power was restored.. Furthermore, restoration of power does not cause a voltage surge. It creates a current surge as voltage stays low - no voltage surge. Just another fact that would cause a claim to be rejected quickly.
Meanwhile, voltage surge could happen if a new transformer was tapped too high. But then other items - not a powered off igniter - would be damaged. And surge protectors would completely ignore that marginally higher voltage. Get the number labeled let-through voltage before making any assumptions.
Those claims that a protector (or tranzsorb, etc) would accomplish something useful are misleading. Type of surge that typically causes damage means earth ground is necessary. No earth ground means that protector does nothing. Why are 'whole house' protectors so effective? They (should) have the necessary earthing connection. A surge earthed where utility wires enter a building means the surge will not take a destructive path through stove igniters. Yes, this type surge could pass through an igniter - even if not powered. Protectors attached at wall receptacles could even make such damage easier.
All appliances have internal protection. Anything that the plug-in protector was going to accomplish is already inside appliances. Internal protection that can be overwhelmed if you don't earth potentially destructive transients at the service entrance and to a single point earth ground.
Appliance safety means a single 'whole house' protector AND building earthing. Building earthing should be upgraded to meet and exceed post
The best information I have seen on surge protection is at
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the title is "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005 (the IEEE is the dominant organization of electrical and electronic engineers in the US).
A second guide is
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this is the "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the appliances in your home" published by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (the US government
Both say plug-in surge suppressors are effective. The IEEE guide clearly describes the protection as clamping the voltage on all wires (power and signal) to the common ground at the surge suppressor. Earthing is described as secondary.
Protection which typically uses MOVs which have no good earth ground.
Coincidence isn't necessarily causation and as others noted, given the nature of the beast, isn't at all straightforward to show that there would be any direct impact expected. Frustrating, undoubtedly, but unless they just happen to feel generous on the day they receive the complaint unless you have something more solid to go on I wouldn't get my hopes up... ...
An area of only that size w/ any history different from any other of a similar size on a statistical basis would be difficult to fathom other than from some very isolated transmission system fault/cause. If you were to actually get the data for the outages and look at them over a period of time for correlation to weather, etc., and could show a high outage rate, that would probably have some bearing. Some utilities I have worked with would have such data readily available, but probably not at such a fine level of detail so to show anything factual would probably require you keeping records yourself for a while.
It can't be negligence unless they're aware of it, and given the volume and area they cover, a few extra calls to a given neighborhood are highly unlikely to raise any flags. As for merit on the specific claim, that was previously mentioned. As for a willingful neglect or conscious decision to not, I suspect again that the impugning of motive is, while comforting, much more an emotional reaction than anything that could be substantiated. In an ideal world, all problems would be solved before the occur and nothing would fail, but in reality, undoubtedly there are service areas suffering far more severe and frequent outages than your neighborhood and are higher up on the list of areas needing/receiving service upgrades.
A neighborhood into which I moved back in TN initially had a high outage rate owing to rapid growth in the area and long, old lines alongside an access road which went a long a creek bottom. Trees were a problem as was an undersized substation for the increased load. Took a few years, but they utility company did get the new substation in and new lines up. It wasn't neglect that took that long, the plans had been in place for quite some time, but resources aren't infinite.
I am not an electronics expert, but my limited knowledge tells me that certain legs of transistors, such as ground, can be connected all the time to the power source. I know that in certain TV's, there is constant power to the set, even when it is not turned on. You can hear their transformers buzzing with the sets powered off. Devices do not have to be powered on to receive fluxuations in current and/or voltage. Switches only complete part of the connection to power. There are other paths.
Do I think it was an act of nature that caused the power failure, no. Do I feel that this device was somehow fried by the electric company, yes. Should I have to install expensive and exotic whole house circuitry to fully protect my house, I don't think so. If these electrical connections to a power grid are potentially dangerous, let the power companies install their own equipment to provide reasonable and safe service.
Yes, only one of two AC electric wires disconnects to turn off an igniter. Other wire would make connections to transistors. Therefore the type of destructive surge (completely ignored by plug-in protectors) that can harm transistors ,when igniter is off, is seeking earth ground - destructively.
"expensive and exotic whole house circuitry" costs tens of times less money per protected appliance. It is neither complex, exotic, nor expensive. And it is necessary in all homes since transistors arrived in the 1970s. A typically destructive type of transient - be it lightning or during utility switching - seeks earth either via one 'whole house' protector (no damage) OR via appliances throughout the building (some or many damaged appliances).
Your building must be earthed per post 1990 NEC for numerous reasons. One is a major safety problem should neutral wire fail. Another is to eliminate human electrical shocks. Another is for potential fire created by adjacent household problems. And but another reason is so that typically destructive transients are earthed. Again, nothing exotic. This earthing is 100% your responsibility.
Earthing connects directly to one of three AC power wires - for human safety. For transistor safety, earthing to other two wires is also required via a 'whole house' protector. Such solutions are sold in Lowes, Home Depot, and electrical supply houses. They have responsible names such as Square D, Siemens, Cutler-Hammer, GE, Intermatic, and Leviton. Never saw such solutions sold in Sears, Kmart, Radio Shack, Staples, Circuit City, or the grocery store.
Secondary protection made necessary because transistors now exist. Transistor damage from these transients is your responsibility. A solution is so inexpensive and simple. Type of transient that could have passed through that 'powered off' igniter occurs only because AC electric was not earthed where AC wires entered the building.
One final point. If AC electric transients are entering the building
- damaging that stove igniter - then those transients may be finding earth ground via gas lines. No problem as long as gas lines are electrically conductive and are not leaking. But do you really want destructive transients finding earth ground via gas pipes? Of course not.
Fix your sec> I am not an electronics expert, but my limited knowledge tells me that certain
But you don't have a problem with a TV. Different circuitry.
You can feel however you want to feel, but that is not going to get things fixed. Nor is it going to prove anything to the power company. I don't think you've convinced many people here so I doubt the engineers at the power company are going to side with you. You can always hire a lawyer though, they may enjoy pursuing the claim and billing you. Keep in mind, you'll need expert testimony, not your personal feelings or hunches.
Hi, How old is your house wiring? Electronic devices by design contains basic protection from ssurge, etc. Good grounding throughout the house is a must.
Hi, That is BS. Electric company is to provide clean/stable power to consumers. Also whole house surge protector is not 100% insurance. I live in Calgary Alberta. In the past 40 years I never suffered anything power related damage. During that time total power outage was maybe maybe half an hour?
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