Electric circuits in old houses--the Random Approach

Reply to
Proctologically Violated©®
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I agree with Doug - cite information. I have seen 2 solder joints fail (in power wiring). Both were "cold joints" when made.

--bud--

Reply to
Bud--

Reply to
Proctologically Violated©®

Reply to
Proctologically Violated©®

I have seen a great many solder joints (though not on power lines) fail when the solder "crystallized" due to thermal cycling, something that old and undersized (by today's standards) can easily see from big loads like heaters.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

I agree with other posts that distributing circuits is an advantage. It might help to make a map with receptacles and lights and the circuit number indicated - easy to look at the map and figure out the right fuse.

--bud--

Reply to
Bud--

likely usage of a circuit by spreading it all over the house?

In that case, label the outlets according to what circut they're on.

Reply to
Goedjn

Get a helper, a non contact voltage tester and a pair of FRS radios. Should take two hours at most.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

I also got 5 flights of stairs! :)

Ackshooly not a big deal. Was more curious as to whether was something intrinsically wrong with the house.

When a fuse blows, we run around to see what else is out, add to the

*notebook* by the fuse box. Do wish, tho, I had d>>
Reply to
Proctologically Violated©®

Proctologically Violated©® spake thus:

Can't comment on anything in "those parts" (I'm on the west coast), but, having worked on lots of houses of the same vintage as yours out here, I'm pretty sure that both BX and NM cables coexisted peacefully with knob & tube wiring. K&T for the runs inside walls and under floors, and cable to go into boxes to devices (switches and outlets).

And yes, I also like the old spliced & soldered connectors. I use wire nuts, and (pretty much) trust them (though I twist the hell out of them just to be sure), but they're not as good as a well-made soldered connection.

Reply to
David Nebenzahl

To the contrary, they use very extensive actuarial models and are a driving force in the development of risk reduction for the express purpose of saving exposure which, coincidentally, tends to be more to your advantage than making a claim.

I've never had an insurance company even ask or have a spot on the form/application that addressed wiring type. No policy has had any provision for denial of claim on the basis of the type of wiring. This goes back to extensive renovation work on houses as much 150 years old which were in some cases originally wired in the proverbial dark ages to modern. Some required inspections, most didn't. Far nore apt for lenders to require than insurance underwriters ime. And if the policy doesn't have the exclusion or condition, claims can not subsequently be denied on that basis. (Not to say they don't/won't cite every limitation in the policy, but they can't make up new ones after the fact.)

Reply to
dpb

Solder can detoriate over time, it grows crystals and changes.

insurance companies have stats to prove that K&T has more fires........

What other device do YOU have thats near 100 years old?:(

Reply to
hallerb

Solder can detoriate over time, it grows crystals and changes.

insurance companies have stats to prove that K&T has more fires........

What other device do YOU have thats near 100 years old?:(

Reply to
hallerb

This seems like it might be a regional issue, though I'm not sure why that would be true. K&T is very difficult to insure in some Western states, yet seems to be readily insurable in some East Coast states. I haven't seen the actuarial studies used in making these decisions, so I can only guess why.

In markets where a large share of the housing stock is old enough to still have K&T, it might make more sense to charge a higher base rate and not distinguish between wiring types; while in states where most housing is too new for K&T, an insurance company can decline coverage to K&T houses without turning away too much of the market, and thus charge lower rates to everyone else.

Remember, too, that insurance companies use very detailed actuarial analysis of claims histories in making these decisions, and they react to what may seem like very small risks. If obsolete wiring has only a

5% higher risk of starting a fire than modern wiring, that's a pretty small difference for the homeowner, a 5% increase in a very small risk. On the other hand, if you're an insurance company trying to charge a competitive rate for taking on the risk of houses burning down, that increase could represent a chance to trim your average premium a couple of percent by not insuring houses with K&T wiring.

Other common wiring-related underwriting issues include total capacity being too low for modern use, e.g. a 60-amp service for a house, and fuse panels instead of circuit breakers.

Finally, there's a difference between underwriting questions -- whether the insurance company wants to insure your house, and policy exclusions

-- things the company won't cover when they do insure your house. The company might not want to insure homes with K&T wiring, but if they decide to insure your house, unless the policy itself has an exclusion for damage related to K&T wiring, it's covered.

Reply to
<josh

I have six houses in a neighborhood development built in 1942 by the United States of America (Federal Government). It was designed to house workers who had come to town to work for the various gun manufacturers in my area.

All of these houses had what I&#39;d call "Octopus" wiring using BX and soldered connections. Octopus since the wiring runs up an outside wall from the breaker box to the attic. The wiring then runs across the attic, dropping down all four walls of the house to each room.

In EVERY one of these houses, the soldered pigtail joints have failed. In most cases it is the neutral connection that has failed. WHY mainly the neutral? I dunno....

Most of the neutral pigtails are in the overhead light boxes that were used for the dual purpose of being a junction box for a second circuit aside from feeding the light fixture. Wartime material shortages perhaps?

In any event, I&#39;ve cut and spliced all the neutral connections with wire nuts to eliminate the problems. I would get tired of having one circuit rise to 200 volts while another dropped to 40 volts depending on the load.

I&#39;ve even done it for neighboring houses after an electrician they hired couldn&#39;t figure out that the junctions were all in the overhead light boxes in each room.

My point is that soldered joints can corrode, oxidize, crystalize or whatever and indeed go bad.

Doug

Reply to
Doug

I would agree with the statement that K&T support is regional. I live in an old Mill Town in Massachusetts, my house was the First to get electrical service in the district and it is actually on the historical societies "Walk through Time." Granted most of it has been upgraded from when the first little light buzzed on however the house still has K&T along with other multifamily homes I own in the area. I have never had any issues with the insurance of these properties. The one thing I however do try to mitigate when I come across it is old K&T that has been spliced over the years when someone performed a mild to massive renovation and just tapped into an existing run. I believe K&T to be inherently "safe" as long as people don&#39;t muck with it.

Reply to
Mike Plate

I still wanna know what those wire-nuts with the threaded brass cannister and set-screw inside are called, and where I can get more.

Reply to
Goedjn

No. Most wire nut failures I have seen are from a wire slipping back when the wire nut was put on (so the wire was not clamped by the wire nut). My experience has been wire nuts are reliable. And solder joints are a PITA for troubleshooting and circuit extensions.

If you are talking about making solder joints now, most people don&#39;t have the skill (even if you solder electronics), and soldering and taping take too long. I have read that in the &#39;good old days&#39; of soldering joints in boxes, the wires were twisted, fluxed, and pointed down, and then were soldered by bringing around a solder pot to dip the joint. Probably a lot faster and more reliable than using an iron.

-- bud--

Reply to
Bud--

3rd request - provide evidence. The 2 failures I have seen were bad when made.

Second request - provide the stats. In a previous link was

- information from an investigation done for Illinios that did not find a problem with K&T

- information from a Maine challenge to an insurance company where the insurance company lost because it did not provide statistics

-- bud--

Reply to
Bud--

To which they apply significant bias to in order to justify what they have already decided that they want to do. It&#39;s a case of creating data to fit the predetermined conclusion.

If it were really true it might be to the public&#39;s advantage, however it is not. To a very large extent the insurance industry applies what is essentially extortion to the public to both increase their profits and also in many cases to push an agenda.

Then you haven&#39;t seen many policies. I&#39;ve seen and dealt with this exact issue personally, and have also seen policy documents indicating increased premiums for electrical over 30-40 years old.

I&#39;ve seen it required by both, though mostly be insurers.

Claims can&#39;t, but they can and will either raise premiums or cancel policies.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

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