Electric Breaker Out of Slots

[Arnie Goetchius]

Have a 1500 sqft home (built 1985) with 100 amp service and a load of about 47 amps. We would like to add an electric wall oven (3600 va) which would bring the load up to 62 amps. The problem is that the breaker box is full. (There are only

16 breaker slots). I know there are side-by-side 15A breakers which take up only half the space. I would like to put 4 of the existing circuits on the these side-by-side breakers so I could free up two slots. Once I do that, I can put in a 240 volt 20 Amp double breaker for the oven.

Question 1: I have seen the side-by-side breakers for Square D but this box is a Sylvania-Challenger. Are there side-by-side breakers for the Challenger?

Question 2: If not, how much might I expect to pay (very roughly) to have an electrician (Central NJ) swap out the Challenger for a 20 slot Square D including the permit, temporary disconnect of power and inspection?

[Steve]

I think most all panel mfg provide the side-by-side space saving breakers. You may even find a generic that will fit your panel.. You need to go to an electrical supplier that handles all the breakers.

You might want to consider upgrading to a 200 amp service anyway.. That is pretty much the standard for a residence today, even if you don't use elect stove, etc.

What it will cost to upgrade depends on the going rate in your area. The panel will be just a small cost in this change over.. I purchased a medium size sub-panel that holds 16 breakers for about $80.

A sub panel isn't going to help you since your really need to bring in more amps (200 amp).

What ever, it will add future value and piece of mind with any other additional system expansion.

Steve

[Wade Lippman]

My 1983 house has a Sylvania box, and it takes the common Murray/Siemens breakers. Two 15/15s will set you back $17. I don't know if it is Challenger, but I expect all early 80s Sylvanias used the same breakers. For about the same price you can get a quad breaker that lets you put two

240v circuits in 2 slots. That will probably be easier because you don't have to move anything, but you will probably have to go to an electrical supply house to buy it. You can buy a whole lot of breakers for the cost of a new installed panel. I take it you don't have central A/C or an electric dryer if your load is only 62a.

[Generic Male Homosapien]

Why not just add another breaker box next to that one. One that will hold a dual breaker for your 220. Of course you will have to tap off the main to get the power to that box, and unless you know what you are doing, you might want to hire an electrician for at least that part of the job.

[Joseph Meehan]

Consider upgrading to 200 amps. Your electric use has increased since

1985 and that 100 amps is marginal.

[Arnie Goetchius]

Thanks for the tips on the breakers. That appears to be a possibility. However, looks like everone is suggesting an upgrade to 200 amps so will also consider that. I do have A/C as shown in the following load calculation. Did I miss anything?

Unit Watts

A/C - one 18,000 one 24000 3860 Dish Washer 1500 Wall Oven 3600 Computers 500

25% of Largest Motor 300 Lighting Demand 1500 Sq ft X 3 Va 4500 Small Appl 2 X 1500 3000 Laundry 1 X 1500 1500 1st 3000 @ 100% 3000 Remaining 6000 @ 35% 2100 Total Lighting Demand 5100

Total Watts 14860

Total Amps 61.9

Wade Lippman wrote:

[Wade Lippman]

There are two reasons you might need a larger service.

You might simply not have enough amps available. Your house is small, and you have no big appliances, so that should not be a problem. Even if it is, you can always do it later just as well when you start popping the main breaker.

The other reason is that you might have excessive voltage drop to your panel with the stove going. That might happen if you are a distance from the transformer and they used smallish cables. You can test for that by turning everything in the house on and testing voltage on both legs at the panel, or at outlets on lightly used circuits. If you are reading more than a 4 volt drop from when nothing in the house it running, you might have a problem. Be sure to test both legs. If one is low and the other is okay, you might be able to rearrange the loads (after installing the stove) to make both legs okay.

I expect the fine folks here will come up with additional reason why you need a new service. I can't wait to see what they are.

[Doug Miller]

I've seen quad 15, 20, and 30A breakers at Lowes, Home Depot, and Ace Hardware. Ace also carries the combo quad breakers such as 15-20 and 20-30.

-- Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?

[Wade Lippman]

Lowes and HD have 15/3030/15 and 20/3030/20, where the center is double pole, and the ends are single. I happen to know because just last week I needed a quad with a double pole 20 and had to go to a supply house. Perhaps Ace can order it, but most Aces are too small to carry much of anything. Since he needs a double 20...

[Doug Miller]

You'd be surprised what Ace has on the shelf. Especially in electrical. There, and on the fasteners aisle, they often have a lot of things that the big home centers don't. FWIW, after I went to Lowe's looking for a 20-30 quad double-pole -- only to be told by the guy in their electrical department that such things don't exist (!) -- I found them on the shelf at Ace, where they are a regularly-stocked item, along with quad 15-20 and 15-30 double-pole breakers.

-- Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?

[Mark or Sue]

I think this is the best answer. Challenger breakers are no longer made. They may have ceased before the twin breakers were even available. You can buy listed "classified replacements" from Cutler-Hammer (their CL line I think). To do this legally, you need to use twin breakers that are listed for your panel. I don't think you'll find any, but there are many that will fit (Siemens, GE, CH-BR). But just because they fit doesn't mean they won't catch on fire.

Put in another 8 or 16 slot panel next to the one you have and feed it with

6-3 on a 60A breaker. You'll have to move two breakers from the existing panel to this sub to free up space for the 60A double pole.

Good job on the load calculation, looks like you did it right. You do not need a larger service at this time, but a hot tub will put you over.

-- Mark Kent, WA

[Arnie Goetchius]

Good point about the unavailabilty of "legal" twin breakers for the Challenger.

Sounds like the best approach and fairly simple to do.

Thanks. I like to know what I have even if I eventually call in an electrician to do the job.

[Wade Lippman]

If breakers aren't available, where will he get the 60a breaker?

[Mark or Sue]

Twin/Tandem's arent available, but double pole breakers should be.

-- Mark Kent, WA

[Wade Lippman]

Okay, but one more thing... If Siemens breakers fit, why would they be dangerous? At worse, they might arc if they do not fit perfectly, but an arcing breaker in a box shouldn't start a house fire. And if there is such a problem, wouldn't it be pretty noticable? Please explain. I have a Sylvania box with a bunch of non-Sylvania breakers, and if there is a problem, I would like to understand it.

[mark Ransley]

Ive gotten breakers at ace, all they look at is if they match. I put them in and all is fine. It doesnt say on my box only use our brand. I thought you use what fits and thats it.

[Mike O.]

I can't help you with question #1, but here in Westerville, OH, I upgraded our old Federal Pacific 100A/12 slot panel to a SquareD

200A/40 slot. The cost of the parts, permit, etc. (plus a few new tools ) was about $500. A neighbor had theirs replaced by a electrician, total was about $1,300. Of course, the professional did it in about 1/3 the time (about 3 hours, including re-connection by the electric co.)

(Before I get flamed, I am NOT trying to imply that the cost of having an electrican is a rip off or anything. With an electrican, you're paying for the training, skill, and peace of mind. In my case, I've worked on this type of thing and similar items, and did a lot of research, including talking to the building inspector. The local code allows the homeowner to do the work, even if they're not a licensed electrican.)

Mike O.

[Houseslave]

Another option is to add a propane stove and forget about adding an electric stove. I did this because my house only had a 100 amp service and I didn't want the extra load. Many people like cooking with gas better then electric too. If you want to go with the electric stove then I would buy the twin breakers to free up the slots and see how it works. You can always upgrade to 200 amps down the road. You're looking at some bucks for a new service which might not be needed. It all depends on how your circuits are laid out and how you use your appliances, etc. I never blow fuses so I'm not looking to upgrade.

[Arnie Goetchius]

Thanks for the response on the cost. I guess I could budget for $1500 and then see what kind of response I get from some local electricians.

[Arnie Goetchius]

You'll get a laugh out of this. This is a kitchen re-model. There was a natural gas range in place but it stuck out 2 inches from the rest of the cabinets. So the lady of the house went to a Kitchen Design place and they suggested an under counter electric oven which would be flush with the cabinets and allows for a gas cook top on top of the oven. If there was an under-the-counter gas oven that would allow a gas cooktop on the top that would be ideal but there isn't any that I could find.

So the bottom line is that to get rid of the 2 inches sticking out into the kitchen, it may cost $1500 for an electrician.