Does having multiple RJ45 jacks degrade the Internet signal a lot?

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wrote:

Ok, I looked again, and Google says the Speedstream 4200 is a modem/router combo, so I respectfully disagree with your assessment that the modem is somehow placing its LAN-connected device in the misnamed DMZ. Instead, it's the router portion of the 4200 that's doing that. That makes sense, though, since routers routinely do that while modems do not.

Yes, and in this case we're concerned with incoming traffic.

Nope.
You've mixed a few types of apples with some oranges. I can tell you were in a hurry. I hope you'll revisit this when you get a chance.

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wrote:

4100 data sheet: <http://www.calweb.com/dsl/SpeedStream_4100.pdf 4100 and 4200 manual: <http://www.cpd.ufrgs.br/servicos/tutoriais/speedstream4xxx.pdf/at_download/file
The 4200 has both USB and ethernet ports, while the 4100 has only the ethernet port.
I'm not sure what you found with Google, but unless they consider the single IP address NAT in the 4100/4200 to be a router of some sorts, I would consider it to be just a modem. (Actually a DSL bridge but that's hair splitting).

I humbly beg to differ. When I set the 4100/4200 into bridge mode, thus disabling the NAT, router, or whatever, it still redirects the management port to the internal web server. Therefore, it's not the NAT, router, or whatever that's doing the redirection, it's the DSL modem/bridge itself.
Note that some mutations of the 4100/4200 seem to screwup doing the redirection. I have a small pile of about 10 4100 DSL modems. Some work, others don't. Actually of the one's that don't work, most of them will recognize the traffic, redirect it to something that tries to deliver a web page, and then hang partly through painting the page. It seems to vary randomly with settings and version. My guess(tm) is that it's an unfinished feature. The redirection works just fine in later models, such as the Motorola 2210-02 DSL modem and every current cable modem that I've tested.

Nope. Outgoing. I'm talking about pointing the users web browser, connected through any router on a LAN port, and getting to the management interface on the DSL modem. It's kinda handy. From the internet (incoming side), I can fire up remote control software such as Teamviewer, connect to the users desktop computah, fire up a web browser, and point it to the DSL or cable modem interface in order to extract signal level and error rate data.

Yep. Try it and see for thyself. However, don't use a 4100/4200. Use a cable modem or later DSL modem.

I'm always in a rush. I've got 4 machines running Windoze updates that are taking forever. Were it not for the slow MS updates, I would never have time to post to usenet.

They paid...
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wrote:

My earlier Google search turned up your second link above, so now I have two copies of the 4200 User Guide. Absolutely no doubt about it, it's a combo DSL modem + router + 4-port switch. What are you seeing that makes you think it's just a DSL modem, because I don't see that.

Think about it for a second. Just because you set the combo device to bridge mode doesn't mean it should disappear, from a management perspective! It would be horribly broken if it DIDN'T continue to respond to its management traffic, even while in bridge mode. If it disappeared after setting it to bridge mode, doing so would be a one way street with no way to return, other than possibly doing a full factory reset. Obviously, that's not the case.

Nope, bad assumptions have led you to a bad conclusion.

My own experience lies with cable modems, and as you say, they do this "redirection" fine. It's not exactly redirection, but I know what you mean.

You've switched topics midstream, which is always confusing.
You started this example by mentioning that the router portion of the 4200 is able to forward all ports to a second (standalone) router, which only applies to new connections coming from the WAN side, going to the LAN side. (Return traffic needs no port forwarding.) That's not unusual or amazing behavior, as I pointed out. It's the exact equivalent of putting one LAN-connected PC in the router's DMZ, if you'll allow me to use Linksys terms.
But now you've turned things around, talking about traffic going from the LAN side to the WAN side, destined for the DSL modem/router. That has nothing to do with the port forwarding mentioned earlier.
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Back when I had dialup internet, I got an offer for trial of cable internet. I really love it. Much faster.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .

My earlier Google search turned up your second link above, so now I have two copies of the 4200 User Guide. Absolutely no doubt about it, it's a combo DSL modem + router + 4-port switch. What are you seeing that makes you think it's just a DSL modem, because I don't see that.

Think about it for a second. Just because you set the combo device to bridge mode doesn't mean it should disappear, from a management perspective! It would be horribly broken if it DIDN'T continue to respond to its management traffic, even while in bridge mode. If it disappeared after setting it to bridge mode, doing so would be a one way street with no way to return, other than possibly doing a full factory reset. Obviously, that's not the case.

Nope, bad assumptions have led you to a bad conclusion.

My own experience lies with cable modems, and as you say, they do this "redirection" fine. It's not exactly redirection, but I know what you mean.

You've switched topics midstream, which is always confusing.
You started this example by mentioning that the router portion of the 4200 is able to forward all ports to a second (standalone) router, which only applies to new connections coming from the WAN side, going to the LAN side. (Return traffic needs no port forwarding.) That's not unusual or amazing behavior, as I pointed out. It's the exact equivalent of putting one LAN-connected PC in the router's DMZ, if you'll allow me to use Linksys terms.
But now you've turned things around, talking about traffic going from the LAN side to the WAN side, destined for the DSL modem/router. That has nothing to do with the port forwarding mentioned earlier.
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Thanks for the info. I had no idea; I'll look into it.
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wrote:

Look again. The 4100 and 4200 both have a single ethernet port with no 4 port switch. <
http://www.pontoxp.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/user-e-senhas-para-modens-e-roteador-d-link-dslink-siemens-dynalink-ericsson-lg-e-kayomi.jpg
I think the basic disagreement is whether a device that does NAT to a single IP address, and to a single ethernet port, should be considered a router. By definition, a router glues two networks together. On one side, we have the entire internet via the DSL port. On the other side, we have a single machine with a single IP address with all 65,000 IP ports going to this single IP address. Whether to consider a single machine to be a network seems a bit dubious, but lacking any other suitable definition, I guess we now have a one machine network. It's certainly not a bridge as it's working on ISO layer 3 (IP) and not layer 2 (MAC) used in bridging.

I'm sure it's the modem doing the redirection. That's because I've tried configuring various modems at various locations through the router. Some modems work, while others do not. I can change modems around, and the one's that work follow the modem, not the router. I can change routers on a setup that works, and there's no effect.

Yep. It seems to have been introduced somewhere in the Cablelabs specs. I haven't bothered digging in there for the details. The problem is that I don't know what to call it. "Management IP redirection" is the best I can invent.

Yep. Guilty. Sorry(tm).

No, I said that the DSL modem section is doing the redirection. Redirection still works in the bridge mode, which disables the NAT and therefore the router section. Therefore, it must be the DSL modem section doing the redirection.

I think we're both in agreement that the Linksys DMZ is not a real DMZ firewall with its bastion host and inside firewall. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demilitarized_zone_%28computing%29>

Yep, that's exactly what I'm talking about. This is NOT about a DMZ, where INCOMING traffic is directed to a specific IP address. This is about OUTGOING traffic, being sniffed for anything with a destination IP address pointing to the management IP address of the DSL modem, and getting redirected to the internal management web server. Please forget about DMZ as it only has relevance for INCOMING traffic, while this redirection is all about OUTGOING.
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wrote:

Agreed, in your photo there's a single Ethernet port, but in the 4200 User Guide you linked earlier, there are multiple references to "Ethernet Ports (1-4)", such as on page 7, "With your computer powered off, connect the Ethernet cable to an Ethernet port (1-4) on the Router." Apparently, someone at Speedstream is confused or there are multiple hardware versions, or...?

I admit, I'm completely baffled by your confusion. Routers don't need to incorporate a switch in order for them to be a router. Heck, a router really only needs a single Ethernet connection, which can be shared WAN/LAN. (Think "router on a stick".) The lack of an included switch, if true, takes nothing away from the router section.
Some clues, taken from the 4200 User Guide: 1. Speedstream always refers to it as a router, never a modem or bridge. 2. Firewall 3. NAT/NAPT 4. Stateful Inspection Firewall 5. Attack protection, Firewall Security 6. DMZ 7. Port Forwarding 8. Session Tracking 9. Content filtering 10. Internet address filtering/blocking 11. Has settings for IP, netmask, and default gateway 12. Includes a DHCP server and DNS forwarder 13. Static routes can be configured 14. RIP 1/2 (Routing Information Protocol) 15. Port Forwarding 16. DynDNS 17. Time Client 18. Has a routing table (static & dynamic routes).
Those things are from a quick skim through the 4200 User Guide. Note that all of those items are typically found in routers, and none of those items are typically found in bridges. I'm unable to explain why you missed the presence of the router.
If you've ever held a 4200 in your hands, you were holding a combo DSL modem and router, and according to the User Guide it also had a 4-port switch, however that detail seems to be in question and not supported by the picture you found.

Redirection? Is this the upstream thing again? I thought we were done with that. I'm much more interested in the downstream direction, where you seemed surprised about the capability to forward all ports to a single IP, i.e., what Linksys calls DMZ. Typical router stuff.
Anyway, I don't quite know what to make of the paragraph above. You refer to modems and routers, but with the confusion regarding the 4200 I don't know which terms to trust. Do you typically add a second router to the mix when you deal with 4200's? Do you refer to the 4200 as a modem, and when you say router you mean a second router attached to the LAN side of the 4200?

I'm talking about the downstream direction. You keep changing the topic to the upstream direction. Focus, please.

Totally agree, but Linksys put the term into common (mis)usage, so no matter how wrong it is, it's out there.

I'm much more interested in the downstream direction, where the 4200's router makes its presence known. The upstream direction is mundane and uninteresting.
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wrote:

Egads. Y'er right. However, that's all wrong as the photo on the same page only shows the back of the 4100/4200 with a single ethernet port.

What? Me confused? I never said that a switch was required. I merely stated that the 4100/4200 does NOT have a built in 4 port switch as you claimed. It does one ethernet port, which doesn't require a switch (or hub) to work.

Because they've been disabled by AT&T and other vendors. I posted the page at: <http://shadow.sentry.org/~trev/4200.html because that's what I've been using to attempt to recover features that were disabled. For example, I can't telnet into the modem. SNMP doesn't work. From the manual, it appears that it can become a proper ethernet router, if the necessary features weren't turned off.
This is what the AT&T version looks like: <
http://www.senorpanadero.net/uploader/userfiles/sen/imgs/ScreenHunter_27.jpg
Note the lack of router-like menus.
This is what the non-AT&T version looks like: <http://skyangel.wikidot.com/speedstream4000 The firewall/DMZ features are missing in the AT&T version. I'm discussing what can be done with the AT&T version.

I have one 4200 and five 4100 DSL modems scattered around the office, car, and house. All have only one ethernet port. I've never seen one with 4 ports in back. I searched with Google images and couldn't find one with 4 ports.

Sigh. Ok, we're done with outgoing redirection. All I said about incoming is that the 4100/4200 sends all ports to a single IP address. No magic (as in the outgoing redirection).

Neither do I. If the AT&T mutation of the 4100 had all the router features mentioned in the docs, it would certainly call it a router. As it stands, it has all the important router features disabled, leaving only the one port "router". I'm undecided as to whether routing the entire internet to a single IP port is really routing.

Yep. That's the recommended AT&T method, double NAT and all. It works because all the IP ports are sent to the 2nd routers WAN IP.

Me? I usually setup the 4100/4200 (and others) for bridging. For AT&T, the PPPoE login is in the router, not the DSL modem (as AT&T recommends). This is not officially correct or default method, but it has given me less grief than any other method. Since the 4100/4200 is now a bridge, I tend to call it a DSL modem. If I wanted to be exact, it's a DSL to ethernet bridge.

In my rant that started this umm.... discussion, I mentioned how it works for incoming traffic in exactly one sentence. Everything I've been talking about has been about the outgoing redirection of the management IP address.

Huh? What does "makes its presence know" mean? I seem to have missed something here.
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wrote:

What I thought I read (repeatedly) was that since the 4200 has only 1 Ethernet LAN port, it can't possibly house a router, or something to that effect. That's completely wrong, of course, and I wanted to point out that a router doesn't need more than 1 Ethernet port. We had several exchanges on the specific topic of whether the 4200 includes a router. It does. It apparently doesn't house a switch, contrary to the User Guide, but there's no question that it houses a router.

Huh? So you've morphed from "modem/bridge only, no router" to "yes, it has a router but most of the features are disabled"? We could have just started there and agreed right off the bat rather than all of this discussion.

You should have been focusing on whether the 4200 includes a router rather than whether it includes a switch. A switch is easy to see while a router takes a (tiny) bit of sleuthing.

A neutered router doesn't magically become some other type of network element. I wonder what you would have called the Linksys BEFSR11, a one port router. There's nothing weird or unusual about a one port router. Any multi-port NAT router you can think of starts as a one port router, to which a switch is bridged.

Ok, thanks, that's probably why you call the 4200 a modem, since you're used to ignoring and/or disabling its router.

Yep, Linksys calls it DMZ. Standard stuff.
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On 12/27/2011 7:59 PM, Char Jackson wrote:

I see Linksys calls it a one port router. ;-) This is better than calling it a modem I suppose. It at least warns the use to think about double NAT, DMZ, etc.
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I used a BEFSR11 for many years, which is why I used it as an example. In my case, the "1 port" aspect warned me that I had to supply my own switch. (I'm not sure how double NAT and DMZ issues apply here? You wouldn't pair it with another router.)
But yeah, there's no shame in a 1 port router. I think they fell by the wayside when people started expecting a switch to be included, but to be honest I typically only use 1 of the 4 ports anyway, ignoring the other 3. More and more, I'm installing Gigabit networks, so everything is Gig until I get to the single link to the gateway router, which can be 100Mb since that's still much faster than the ISP link. Everything internal flies, including mail server and other intranet stuff.
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On 12/28/2011 12:55 AM, Char Jackson wrote:

If you wanted wifi, you would have to pair it with another router, not just a switch. Well I never saw a switch with wifi. I don't think they sell the plain WAPs these days, though I still have two Dlink WAPs (B speed) if I really wanted to put a WAP on a switch.
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No, you'd never intentionally pair it with a second router. If you wanted Wifi, you'd pair it with an access point, but you'd most likely connect that AP with a switch to give you a couple of wired ports at the same time.
Note that any wireless router can be configured as an access point. Sloppy installers/users will forget to do that configuration, resulting in two routers in series. Not good.
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On 12/29/2011 6:05 AM, Char Jackson wrote:

If I bought a wireless router, then isn't it far less work to simply DMZ to the the router instead of having to figure out how to make the router be a WAP? For one thing, I don't have to delve into the guts of a what the ISP peddles, but can simply use as little as necessary on the modem then do the heavy lifting on the router that I purchased which has support and detailed documentation.
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What's to figure out? Disable DHCP, connect the upstream router to a LAN port versus the WAN port, and you've turned a wireless router into an access point. That's not a lot of work. If you're comparing the number of mouse clicks compared to DMZ'ing the first router to the second router, it's probably a wash at maybe half a dozen, max.
Every situation is different, but daisy chaining routers would very rarely be my first choice.
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Maybe DMZ Host, as mentioned in the wiki, is the better term.
My recollection of the Vietnam war is the DMZ wasn't so DMZd.
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wrote:

One more, for hacking the 4100/4200: <http://shadow.sentry.org/~trev/4200.html Ugh... he calls it a router. Grumble.
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wrote:

So does Speedstream.
Linksys calls the WRT54G a router, too, but it's a router, a bridge, a switch, and an access point, among other things. I guess you gotta call it something, so you let the marketing department loose on it and see what they come up with.
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On 12/27/2011 5:53 PM, Char Jackson wrote:

A multifunction Ethernet network appliance? ^_^
TDD
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On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 12:02:34 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Yes, I know, thanks, but my question was relating to adding a router to an existing modem/router combo unit.
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