Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?

Reply to
Long Ranger
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Wouldn't a pressure connection conform to the flatter shape just as well, once the solder melted? The ones I am familiar with use a spring action for the pressure.

Reply to
Toller

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:56:25 GMT, "Toller" Gave us:

A gas tight crimped fitting doesn't need solder, or pass standards with solder added either.

My standard is likely a mil standard, though I would think it is in the NEC as well.

Reply to
Roy L. Fuchs

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 01:38:26 GMT, "Long Ranger" Gave us:

It doesn't even have to get hot. Solder "creeps", period. It creeps faster under pressure stress. That is the nature of soft metals.

Reply to
Roy L. Fuchs

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:00:19 GMT, "Pop" Gave us:

Absolutely not.

Solder creep is a well known phenomena. It is a bad practice for any compression type connection.

Reply to
Roy L. Fuchs

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:54:33 GMT, "Long Ranger" Gave us:

Not true. Not "debatable". Not an accepted practice.

Reply to
Roy L. Fuchs

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 05:30:08 GMT, "Toller" Gave us:

What happens is that even after making a nice tight compression connection on a stranded wire that has been "tinned", one will find that even after a few hours, the pressure on the wire is reduced.

Solder is a soft alloy. It "creeps". There is no way around it.

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Reply to
Roy L. Fuchs

Well there you have it then. When I said it was debatable I meant that there were quite a few in my experience that think tinning is the be-all, and end-all for copper connections under any circumstance. I have often argued against it, and I wasn't even cognizant of the "creep" phenomena until now. I had a boss for quite a few years that swore by it, and even tinned 250KCM generator leads in a pot of melted solder. Those were sure fun.

Reply to
Long Ranger

OK, so it looks like what I did is not good (soldering the stranded wire before connecting it to the screw terminals on the outlets). However, instead of changing all the wire or getting outlets that work better with stranded wire, can I solder on connectors like these:

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And then connect these to the screw terminals on the outlets? Can I just solder these on or is there any special crimping that needs to be done to these? Do I need a special crimping tool or are these usually made to work with normal pliers.

Thanks, Harry

Reply to
Harry Muscle

: >> : > "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in : >> message : >> : > news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com... : >> : >> On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud-- : >> : >> : >> Gave us: : >> : >>

: >> : >>>The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire : >> in a pressure : >> : >>>connection. : >> : >>

: >> : >>

: >> : >> Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered. : >> : >

: >> : > I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that? : >> : > (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this : >> : > prohibition...) : >> : : >> : It goes back to depending on the solder for the connection. The : >> solder is : >> : holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot, it : >> gets loose. You : >> : are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the : >> connector. : >> : >

: >> : >

: >> : : >> : : >>

: >> In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS rather : >> than a written rule? : >>

: >> Pop : >>

: >>Yes, that is why I said earlier that it was debateable, but that I tended : >>to agree with it. : >

: : Not true. Not "debatable". Not an accepted practice.

If you become more familiar with rules & regulations gvt wise, you'll learn that there are many, many cases which can only be decided by those who "interpret" the rules because a specific case isn't specifically covered. Thus, the outcomes depend on the inspector/s interpretation of those rules, which in turn makes them "debatable". It is, and always has been an "acceptable" method in ALL areas of law inclucing the rules and regulations.

Pop

Reply to
Pop

: Gave us: : : >In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS rather : >than a written rule? : >

: >Pop : : Absolutely not. : : Solder creep is a well known phenomena. It is a bad practice for any : compression type connection.

You obviously don't know what "interpretation" means w/r to rules & regs. Interpretation by different authorized people are exactly why you will get seemingly opposing answers to the same question when it's answered from the rules & regs. If you really know mil-specs, then you know that. So ... stop playing semantics or stop being silly.

Pop

Reply to
Pop

IMO, all the same problems will still be present, even more-so, since with that, there is no J or shepherd's hook to help hold the wire in place.

If you can't cut/restrip the wires, FWIW, I think I'd simply pick up a cheap solder-sucker (spring type, not squeeze-bulb), and clean as much solder off as possible. Then using a moistened cloth, heat/remove the rest of the tin coat as much as possible and put it back under the screws. Watch out for melting the insulation! The idea is to remove as much of the contact area solder as possible. Wrap it on the screws & thightten. Info is provided "as is" and with no guarantee of being acceptable or functional.

Personally, I'd cut/restrip the wires - and use a crimp-on sized/made for the wires for connection. At the moment, that soundss easiest/best to me, at least.

Pop

Reply to
Pop

On 3 Feb 2006 06:34:48 -0800, "Harry Muscle" Gave us:

Crimp terminals are designed to work on stranded wire without a solder backfill or pre-tinned wire of any kind. Of course this does not include wires manufactured with tinned strands. The bundle of wire needs to be a bundle where all the strands are NOT melded together. The whole key to a gas tight crimped fitting relies on this form of malleability. This is why crimping onto a single solid strand is less reliable from the industry's POV.

AFAIR that is a mil spec. There are several reasons.

One is that 8 out of ten solderers has very cursory skills at it. It is hard enough getting them to solder a standard through hole lead in place correctly. That is why mil spec has such numerous inspection steps.

When tinning the end of a stranded wire, the entire "hot" portion of the operation only lasts a couple seconds. If one tins for too long, or at too hot a temperature, the solder leaches (see capillary attraction) up the wire, stiffening the wire over a half an inch up its length.

It requires long learned repetitive skills to tin properly, and the first person in here that trivializes it is one of the eight out of ten, I guarantee it.

Another reason is, of course, solder creep.

Adding solder to a crimped connector AFTER it has been placed on the wire is the least mutative, most integrated method, but it is still unacceptable, IIRC.

Reply to
Roy L. Fuchs

Care to quote chapter and verse?

Reply to
Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:55:09 GMT, "Pop" Gave us:

Tinning stranded wire bundles as a prep for insertion into a crimped connector or fitting is not now, nor has it ever been acceptable. There are SPECIFIC rules against it is both the military and NEC standards and practices.

It is NOT about any form of "inspector's interpretation".

The electronics industry, above all, is not of that nature either. The guidelines have been set for years and the differences between military, industrial and commercial practice are not all that varied, yet they are concise enough to make your statement false.

Reply to
Roy L. Fuchs

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 15:00:37 GMT, "Pop" Gave us:

You obviously do not know the difference between rules and regulations which people have the ability to "interpret" and rules and regulations which are set in stone, and not open to "interpretation".

ANY inspector that thinks that it is HIS or HER duly "authorized" right to bend, meld or "interpret" the rules is an idiot that doesn't know how to ASK his superior for an answer when he or she gets stuck on an issue. ALL circumstances in the industry are covered, and NONE of them are mutable through individual interpretation and ANY inspector that thinks they are is not now, nor never was a real inspector.

Actually, that should read:

"stupidity by different promoted past their level of competency twits are exactly why you will get seemingly opposing answers to the same question..."

"If you really know mil specs" then you'd know that that is not true in any way shape or form. NOTHING is left open to interpretation, by inspectors or otherwise.

Grow the f*ck up, grandpa.

Reply to
Roy L. Fuchs

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 15:09:55 GMT, "Pop" Gave us:

That is the first correct thing you have said, and that only because it is about what YOU said.

Reply to
Roy L. Fuchs

Just curious, what is the opinion for the following: crimping the connection, and THEN soldering it?

TTYL

Reply to
repatch

Could someone provide a link to a picture of what I should be using ... ie: what the crimp-on connector looks like?

Thanks, Harry

Reply to
Harry Muscle

My question has actually nothing to do with aluminum wiring ... it's just the research I've been doing on aluminum wiring that made me wonder about solder and copper wiring. Sorry if that confused anyone.

Thanks, Harry

Reply to
Harry Muscle

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