What you have to have before you do that, is your EPA certificate. And right now, with R410 rolling out hard and heavy, its not really something a person with little to no training really wants to do... Im waiting for the rush on systems to start in about another 5 years, when the original stuff that was installed in the early days of Puron starts to fail, DIY types start to work on it, and a week after they put in that new compressor, its locked up tight as a drum. Failures will be from running R22 in a 410 system and the oil says..WTF? and of course, having the system open for more than 30 minutes...no amount of vac after that will clear the oil, that is VERY hydroscopic.
NO motors used in OE are the type you can oil now, unless they are in commercial equipment., OR on a belt drive unit.
Actually..wrong. Clean that outdoor unit, that was dirty and the last tech didnt clean it, and then you damn sure better have a set of guages and a sling pchycrometer.(sp)
Again..wrong. We kept records one year of every unit we serviced that was NOT a unit we had serviced before.
100% of them were charged wrong. You can not tell if a unit has a bad weld, a leaking service port, or if the guys that charged it before had a clue. Of course, its harder yet to tell if the company you have coming out knows what they are doing.
Its yet another reason we dont charge for refrigerant if its just a couple of pounds low on a service call. (hint..largest scam in the industry.)
IMPOSSIBLE. He might have oiled the CONDENSOR FAN MOTOR, but he didnt oil the compressor motor. The compressor motor is sealed, and oiled by the refrigerant oil.
Thats one case. Explain to the others out there that have had issues over and over again why their units failed.
I had a Mazda B2000 that went over 500,000 miles....yet no one else could get that out of one around me....why is that?
AHHHHH There ya go.. Thats why. Now, you take a unit that runs up to 8 hours a day, every day for about 200 days a year...its going to require much more than yours did.
Ok.. Its actually more simple than you think. Just because a unit is cooling, does not mean its cooling PROPERLY. You reach a level (every pressure has a temp, every temp has a pressure) that the unit will start to freeze the coil....drop lower, (remove more refrigerant) and it will get to the point that it will not meter, and the coil wont freeze...but thats another topic..anyway...you can charge a unit to the point where it will cool. Stop right? Wrong. Suppose you are charging the unit on a 100F day....will it cool properly on a 75F day? If you didnt charge the unit properly, the answer is yes, no, maybe. A properly charged unit takes more than the pressures into consideration. Any and I mean ANY HVAC guy that you hire, that simply takes a manifold set (guages) to the unit, slaps em on, and declaires it full, or low, is a thief..a crook, a hack, a fool, and isnt to be paid a damn dime for his time, or work. ANY HVAC guy that does the above, and takes his little green jug of R22 to the unit, and ONLY the jug and starts dumping gas to the unit, isnt to be paid either..when he tells you that it took 3lbs of R22, ASK HIM HOW IN HELL HE KNOWS...unless he took a scale with him, nd offers to show you the reading, in plain unadulterated English....f*ck him. Unless he takes wet bulb readings, checks the coil condition for cleanliness, filters, ambient air temps, etc, hes not charging your unit right.
Care to guess how up to 95% of the units in teh country are charged?
A properly charged unit is one that is working at proper efficientcy. While you can have a unit that cools your home, (and its charged wrong) imagine what would happen if that same unit that you thought was working right, really was? Humidity goes down, run times might increase, and power consumption goes DOWN.
Granted...most people never know. Most techs never check. And its a sad state of affairs. Its also one reason that we throw our techs a test call from time to time....a unit that we have set up wrong on purpose..superheats off a bit, maybe alot....its either low, or overcharged, but its cooling GREAT....so says the homeowner that is there. When the tech gets off the call, we check the paperwork, and then go check the unit.....WITH THE TECH. If its wrong, we show them what they failed to do, and why. Now..you get one that flat out screws the customer, they are fired...period. This isnt a game that you get to throw another 50 cents in and go again...you get one shot with customers, and if you are out there making the company look bad, well...you lose. Its about educating the consumer as much as it is about doing the job RIGHT. Do it, or dont...if you do, you have a job, if you dont, you can go work for someone tht does not give a shit.
And there are some things that while its in simplistic terms to someone thats trained, it would STILL be over a customers head.
We cant tell what a customer can understand....we cant tell what will ring the little bell and go DING, that makes sense, and we cant spend 4 hours on a simple service call showing and explaining every move we make.
If it helps I have considered for the longest time putting a page up on my site that shows the PROPER way that a tech should service a unit, with pics, and some basic explanations. With season getting fired up, this might be the time to do it....I just have to find the time to spend the extra hour or so on a call taking enough pics that we have enough that can help explain things.
BTW...expect it to get much harder next year for DIY types to be able to buy anything from local supply houses in most areas. Mine here have simply stopped selling unless you are licenced. Period. They used to slide a few things, but no longer. With EPA audits and state licence inspections on the increase due to the new refrigerants and new legislation here, its going to be a thing of the past at least for a time.
Of course, in the states that a licence is not required, things wont change, but you still will have to meet the federal mandates.
You can't put years of training and experience into a short explaination for a homeowner. If you did and something else wemt wrong next time, where would they be? Lost, that's where!
Sounds reasonable, but isn't for many people. In the first place the change in efficiency is usually minor so a $70 service call won't be recovered for several years. Actually on the car motor, if you watch the gages, your car radiator won't be empty and neither will your motor be empty of oil. However, checking your oil amount is a 2minute job (from the front door and back) and checking your radiator coolant is about 1 minute and neither costs any money.
Most people would never notice the change in efficiency in a motor car A/C, i.e. the mpg change. They either never compute it (or don't know simple math) or they believe all sorts of wild claims. I recently read that a nationally know agency claimed every 100 pounds costs 1 mpg. Obviously an exaggeration. I had a 73 F25o that got 11.5 mpg whether it was empty or hauling
1000 pounds. By the agency calculation, I should have gotten only 0.5 mpg when hauling 1000 pounds. Don't know what the hell I was suppose to get hauling 1500 to 2000 pounds.
The only A/c type of efficiency that I noticed was the cost of running a freezer. It was terribly inefficient and I should have junked it at the beginning. Wasn't a problem with the sealed system but a design flaw; defrosting cycle was clocked wrong and ran too much.
As I stated before and I agree with you on catching the problem early. If one pays attention, one will notice when something is wrong and will turn off the appliance and call the maintenance man (assuming one doesn't know how to fix it). Until that time, maintenance on A/C is generally a waste of your money and a money maker for the technician. If it is cool, it is ok!
Sorry, I erred, should have been refering to the fan motor. Of course the A/c compressor in home type stuff is sealed.
Why? It is not suppose to be clean and free of leaves. You want to change something just because you cleaned it? Total BS. Do you tune up your car every time you wash it?
Don't understand your point. If the unit holds it charge and cools for 10 years, are you saying it came from the factory incorrectly charged or it was charged wrong at installation.
If you found everyone of them charged wrong, I suggest that your test was not accurate. You are saying that everyone except you charges the units incorrectly?
Great, how do you recover the cost of teh refrigerant? Big maintenance charge?
As I said at the beginning, I erred. Of course it was the fan motor. Nice catch.
Guess I had an install of a reputable unit by a reputable company. Like I said the unit was used hard either.
Don't know, luck of the draw. I had a window A/C unit given to me that had been run hard by a mother for many year, then given to a daughter who ran it and the performance slowly detiorated. I removed the blower, cleaned the bearings, reinstalled and used if for over a year during which it performed admirably. Explain that.
Maybe and maybe not.
Whoa, you just said what I did. If it works properly it has to be charged correctly.
Anytime you want to show what you have, and can apply in the real world, and not nitpick over a typo, you are welcome to come try. I am not talking about just some pansy test, I am talking about a basic resi unit that has issues, but isn't noticeable right off. Keep in mind, Ill have the brother in laws production team filming this, and we just might have to turn it into a tape that shows why uneducated folks should not attempt some things. Up to it? You are great at flames, but I offer that you cant figure superheat, or how to tell if that's what you use, in the real world. If typos are what you want to use as a method to discredit me...go for it...Your typos are repaired in this reply.
"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message news:GkF7e.76693$ snipped-for-privacy@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Np.
I would honestly rather have a few leaves on some units, rather than the crud that gets down into the coils that you can not always see. When the coils are clean, and I dont mean washed off with water only, the pressures will change, but pressures dont mean a thing by themselves.They are just one factor in your charge. Again, no one is suggesting you CHANGE OUT anything. I am telling you a simple fact. Clean coils will transfer more heat, and as such, yes, if they have not been cleaned properly in the past, and now they are, I can promise you that there will indeed be a change. This isnt your cars finish we are talking about. The performance of your car does not rely on how shiny your paint is.
Your unit? Have no way of knowing. However....factory charge USED to be 20 feet of lineset, and that would mean properly sized lineset. Todays units have less. If you had for whatever reason, a larger lineset, (needed at times) or a smaller than OE lineset, (never suggested, but often found) then if they just hooked up and opened the valves, then unless the lineset was shorter than the charge allowed, or other sets of events that we can see from here, its charged wrong...if its never had a gauge set on it, then you dont know either. If all they have done is slap a maifold on it and look at the pressures, you also do not know. The point was, simply, a unit can cool, and still be wrong.
Nope. Not at all. Looks that way from reading it, but that is not the case. There is nothing wrong with my testing procedures. They are the correct and most accurate procedures....what I am suggesting is that during THAT test period, all the units we checked that were new customers had incorrectly charged units.
Nope. Low overhead. How much do you think that a jug of refrigerant REALLY costs? LOL... Like I state, and I will stand behind, adding refrigerant to a unit is the #1 scam in the industry. The most common amount to scam the customer is
2lbs.. I dont think we will go broke giving a customer $3 of refrigerant. (R22) I also know that as 22 prices go higher, as they will in the next couple of years, we might have to charge a slight amount for it, but it wont be much. Oh..if it matters, until June 1st, a service call for maintaining a unit, not repairing, but a seasonal service is $50..that includes all we do to a unit, cleaning properly with a chemical wash outdoors, a chemical wash of the indoor coil, and up to 2lbs of R22. Some guys wont consider that $50 anything but a TRIP FEE. Yea....real high service fees man....real high. LOL
No problem..all I was doing there was letting you know that if thats what you really thought, your guy lied to you...thats all.
I would say that you have had good luck, and the useage of the unit helps. If you dont use it much, its not going to have much wear and tear. They DO wear out.
You just proved the point for service and cleanings. Had it been cleaned and checked (granted, its a window unit.) the performance would not have dropped.
No..its not a maybe or maybe not. The units here in NC actually require less service than the ones we serviced in the deserts of CA. The area the unit is in, will also determine how often it needs service. Some units suggest as a basic guide, in the owners manual, at least ONE service every 2 years, and then they have a disclaimer that states that depending on the enviroment, usage, type of unit, that it may require more. I have resi units we get to once a year, some twice a year, some once every
2 years. Then I have commercial units that get checked every 2 months. It depends on the usage, and enviroment.
Nope...if you took it that way, sorry. Ok..its like this. Turtle suggests that you charge a unit till the lineset is "beer can cold". Now, granted, if you do that, the unit will cool. If you do that most of the time, its overcharged. SOMETIMES it will be undercharged. You have to take all the variables that go into the design of the unit, the units metering device, the temps, etc, to properly charge a unit. There are some guys that will charge a unit until the lineset is sweating like crazy. The lineset might sweat with 97%RH, but if its sweating at 70% or less, its probably overcharged. Charge the unit properly, to the proper superheat, or subcool, and it does not matter if its not sweating. Alot of people will say incorrectly that if you go out and one lines hot and the other is cold, its right. Well..no...not always. Again, this is where superheat and subcool come into play. I can MAKE a lineset sweat like crazy, and not a bit of cooling take place. What good is that?
Point is..if your tech is not checking the proper items, hes not working for you. Most people do not have a clue what is right, and what is wrong. Sad thing is, most techs dont either. Im on your side guy....ive said time and time again that I would do this for free, if I could find a way to pay the bills..LOL. I got into this because of a crooked tech in CA. I was in automotive, knew what was the proper way to charge a system (weight, superheat-subcool, etc) and watched a guy try to get one over on a retired lady....my mother in law..I was not licenced in CA at the time, so I suggested that she call a company that she trusted out to check her unit that was not cooling well. He comes out, didnt do anything honestly but slap the manifold on, and start dumping 22 to the unit. I stood and watched, asking questions like: Where is your scale? Where is your thermometer? How you gonna know how much you put in? he advoided the questions, ignored most, and then told me that he didnt like non licenced persons telling him how to do his job. He then came in and gave her a $200 bill. I told him that once he got the superheat readings on the ticket and exactly how much 22 he put in, we would pay it, but he refused. We told him that we would take it up with his boss, and called another company out. Turns out later that I would go to work for this guy, but anyway, he did everything right, removed 5lbs too much R22, and then cleaned the coils. The unit cooled like a champ. Needless to say...the other company didnt get paid the $200..they got paid for a service call....but not for the hacks attempted repair.
That was all the effort I was gonna put in it... But , since it was in alt.home, dont ya think that the good folks there need to know that some alt.config troll does not know his head from his ass? Hows things going man? Old mails not active..the old ones back up, or call me sometime..
Indeed. Some people can't even spell 'explanation'. Highly unlikely they'd be able to explain anything to your average college educated homeowner.
Nah, they'd probably just figure something wemt wrong and look for another slightly more competent hvac contractor.
I know all about that stuff and won't even have that stuff on my property. Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob in a mobile home doesn't know about it and think the MSDS that is hung from the neck of the jug is more fodder for the little house out back.
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