Do you really need to a permit and inspector to do work around the house?

[Pop]

This question is best asked of your local code enforcement office.

P> Here's a silly question... so why would you pay for a permit

[Oh_Jeeze]

connection. It

Having a masters degree means that I understand electricity, electric, and electronic components many orders of magnitude better than most people. I know it's easy for someone who does not understand the engineering process or what engineers do to become easily confused. My

8yrs of experience have been spent in a practical engineering environment. So, not only do design but when need be I can make proper connections, route wires, and mount boxes. I can hammer a nail too. WIPPIE! Maybe if I were a wet eared engineer fresh out of college with no practical experience would I not have the ability to connect a circuit. But hey, as for your other advice, thanks for the repeating everything "zxcvbob" pointed out.

[Ignoramus5713]

There is not that much about electricity as such that one needs to know to route wires etc. The main source of NEC and codes and such, is accumulated bad experience, knowing what kinds of things can go wrong.

If you try to "route wires" without consulting with that body of experience, you may repeat some mistakes that you simply forgot to think about. Troubles that you would no doubt understand once they are brought to your attention, but may not necessarily recognize at the time of making decision.

I am not insinuating that you in fact want to do it without reading codes and how to books. Merely stating that it is necessary.

If you are a handy person, who read books on residential electricity, I would be greatly surprised if you were incapable of doing a great electrical job on most everything.

i

[Oh_Jeeze]

Thanks guys, I wouldn't put anything past the insurance companies. Maybe they will pay, maybe they won't but I'm not really willing to take the chance. It never hurts to have a second pair of eyes. However, I wonder how someone would be able to tell the difference between a newly installed charcoaled electrical addition and an old charcoaled electrical addition. They would have to send a super inspector at the time I bought the house to check if every wire burried behind drywall is up to code. My insurance company basically sent someone over to check that the property really exsisted and to check the distance to the nearest fire hydrant.

[Oh_Jeeze]

wrong.

I completely agree!

[Robert Allison]

We just got finished with a house that the homeowner was redoing his own roof. No permit, nothing. He tore off the roof, felt and flashing down to the decking, THEN called for materials to be delivered!

Five days of rain later, the materials were delivered to the jobsite, but not before 68,000 bucks worth of damage to the interior of the house.

Like I said, we just finished up,... and picked up our final check from his insurance company, minus his 2500.00 deductable which he paid. I have done many jobs like this and have never seen an insurance adjuster flinch at paying a claim. We had a job where a house burned down due to an overloaded outlet. (12 items plugged into a dual receptacle, including a microwave) The adjuster listened to the homeowner talk about the cause of the fire and how he had learned a valuable lesson, etc. Insurance paid for everything except the deductable.

Shall I go on?

[Edwin Pawlowski]

No, I'm not confused at all. I have engineers in the family, I deal with lots of engineers. Some are geniuses, some are twits. Happens in every walk of life. I don't get impressed by the wall paper but by your accomplishments. You only told me about the wall paper you have.

Now why do you denigrate recent graduates? Some have lots of practical experience and can run rings around the paper hangers.

As an engineer with a masters pedigree, you must know how news servers work. You probably know that I did not see his post before I sent mine. Anyway, I'm glad I could reinforce what he had to say. Engineers like lots of redundancy.

Hey, you never told us what railroad?????

[Jeff Cochran]

Locally, replacing fixtures, as in your toilet or lamp doesn't require a permit. Relocating a pipe or outlet would. But unless you live here, whatever's required here doesn't matter to you.

Jeff

[Ignoramus5713]

an interesting story snipped

I have to wonder though, how come it burned down and why did the circuit breaker not do its job.

i

[Joshua Putnam]

Various possibilities.

Hook a lot of items up to a light-duty extension cord and the cord itself can overheat even though the circuit isn't up to the breaker's capacity.

Have a lot of items plugged into a multi-outlet tap and the weight of the cords can pull it part-way out of the wall, reducing the size of the connection and making the outlet overheat.

Could just be a cheap breaker panel with breakers that don't trip when they should. Do a google search on breakers and you'll find references to brands known to have that problem -- I've seen a 15A breaker not trip when carrying more than 20A load.

[George E. Cawthon]

Yeah, like a wall being more than 3/4" off vertical from top to bottom. Wait, that was my new carefully built, with permits, and inspected house built by professionals. Didn't notice it until I installed a wood stove and dropped a plumbob for the chimney.

My point is that poorly done doesn't mean that a non-professional, unlicensed person did it. If you do careful neat work that is correct, the inspector might notice but will likely figure it was done by a professional.

I have several friend that have receive highly complimentary statements from inspectors on their electrical, plumbing, or other work, indicating that it was far above the standards done by professionals. Not unusual or unexpected if you work carefully as the usual trade person doesn't have the time to be exceptionally careful.

Oh, yeah, we looked for about 2 months and finally selected this house as the best location and construction from what we had visited. After 6 months and climbing up on the roof to install the chimney for that wood stove, I finally notice that there was no cap on a section of the roof. No water problem because the shingles were overlapped, but still. One call and the roofer sent is son out immediately to fix it. Seems there was some mix up each (father and son) thought the other had finished the cap. I may have made some visual errors (no one notices) when I reroofed years later, but it doesn't leak and I sure didn't leave the cap off.

Oh, I forgot the pieces of wood left in the furnace plenum, because somebody was too lazy to pull them out after another stupid person dropped them in there. Lots of stories of screw ups in other houses.

Nope, you won't have a bit a problem if you are halfway neat and follow what responsible people at your local supply houses tell you.

[Ed Clarke]

The safety department at IBM has a show-and-tell every year in the Research division. They had disassembled an outlet strip with a massive power cord to show the inside. Each outlet was connected to the previous one with #22 wire. Needless to say, the outlet strip was half melted. The power cord was #14 and had a 15 amp circuit breaker on the strip.

"If you see one of these outlet strips in a lab, throw it away immediately and come get a replacement from the stock room." The new ones are bright yellow and use #12 wire throughout.

They also ding you if they find any outlet strip being used for more than a few weeks. You're supposed to call maintenance and have real outlets installed. Extension cords are not permitted at all.

[Bennett Price]

[trader4]

Really, like what kind of work? Changing a light fixture? Replacing a door? A new sink? Everywhere I know work of that type can be done by the homeowner without a permit or inspection. If permits were required for most home work, there wouldn't be enough inspectors to handle it.

Certainly you do need permits for improvements that are structural, a new septic system, well, etc, but I don't think the new homeowner was contemplating that level of work.

[Ignoramus22481]

My village requires permits for all electrical work involving adding receptacles, for example. The process of getting those permits is complicated and expensive.

[bbmwr90s01]

I found this thread quite interesting. In 2 different cities, I have had numerous cases where inspectors have signed off on improperly done work.

My 2 cents: NEVER count on a city inspector saving you from a bad contractor. The inspector is there for the city's benefit, not yours.

[Steve B.]

Recently Romex wire changed the sheath color depending on the wire gauge. So if you were in a ten year old house full of standard ol' white Romex cables and one pretty new yellow romex cable burned down the house they have a clue where to start looking. Also if they find anything you did without permit it sets precedent that you do electrical work in your home and don't necessarily get a permit. I've seen an insurance company use this logic in court on a case where a large plant was destroyed by fire.

Even with that said I have never heard a verifiable case of homeowners insurance denying coverage for even a stupid mistake.

Steve B.

[HorneTD]

Steve B. wrote:

I am a firefighter and during the mid eighties I was called to testify in just such a case. I wish I could remember the name of the insurance company and the exact date but alas I cannot. It was admittedly an extreme example but the homeowner had refinished his basement and for his electrical outlets he had used one inch deep communications boxes and the replacement only two wire outlets. The fire actually originated at a box were a freezer was plugged in using an adapter. The basement was finished with paneling fastened directly to the studs which made a very fast and very hot fire. In spite of those conditions we made a dam good stop and held the fire to the basement level. The only damage above other than some minor smoke was from the process of searching for hidden fire by opening up the walls behind the base boards to check for extension. The basement and contents were a total loss and much of the first floor's structural support had to be rebuilt. The home owners problems with his insurance carrier began with their review of the fire cause and origin report from the county fire marshal's office. They then sent an investigator of their own and declined the claim. The insurance company called several firefighters to testify but we never got to do so. The judge refused to let it go to trial once the plaintiff home owner admitted to having done the electrical work without a permit and his attorney could not offer an alternative explanation of the cause of the fire. The judge said that it was a legal absurdity to attempt to collect an insurance award for the consequences of your own unlawful act. I lost a mornings work but I got a new uniform out of the deal.

-- Tom H

[Phisherman]

Permits vary greatly depending where you live. Check your local laws. If you put up a shed or install a fence without a permit, the city may fine you and make you take it down. If something was added incorrectly and you attempt to sell the house, it might become an issue and stop or delay the sale process. Use common sense and think safety. A good home repair manual will clue you in on what things may require a permit.

[Oh_Jeeze]

That seems to be correct. I posted this same question to some people that I work with at lunch and the consensus was that an inspector's signature does not guarantee that the work is done correctly regardless of whether it was done by a contractor or a novice.