Do you like CPVC as much as copper?

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I am going to be running a hot water line up and over from the water heater to a kitchen sink about 90 feet away. Presently the water goes through a 3/4 copper pipe buried in the concert slab. I am going to run a 1/2 inch overhead pipe covered by insulation. I am doing this to get hot water faster - and not lose a lot of heat to the concrete slab.
I am the guy that was asking how much water is in a 1/2 inch by 100 feet copper tube.
I went to Lowes and Home Depot and talked to the help there. I have always used copper in the past sweating my own fittings. Both places asked me to consider CPVC - it is much cheaper and they said easier to work with. Is it durable?
They also showed me coils of copper tubing - in K and L category. What is the difference in K and L copper tubing? It is more expensive than CPVC - but you would have only one coupling overhead - not like the CPVC.
They also showed me union joints that join CPVC and copper.
I appreciate comments on this job.
Harry
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Cpvc for hot water, I believe the pipes the pipes will never calcify and will not radiate heat as fast as copper. You need more supports as there is more flex. For less heat loss use Cpvc and closed cell foam insulation, get the type of foam with pre glued seams you just pull of the plastic and push together.
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snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (m Ransley) wrote:

I looked at the pre glue insulation - there is some that is pretty rigid - and then stuff that looks soft and rubbery. Which one is closed foam insulation?
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My dad's house is plumbed all in PVC and CPVC, he has not had any problems with it in over 25 years. Taht said I don't like the stuff, I can't say why for sure, I just like copper better. Greg
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Copper will withstand freezing better. CPVC will be better if is buried. Michelle
Harry Everhart wrote:

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Not much chance of freezing in Florida especially with the pipe insulated. The main water line into the house is CPVC 3/4 inch plastic about two feet underground.
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I have used the PVC/CPVC. I prefer copper. The plastic pipe needs expansion room.
I'm not sure about the K and L ratings on the copper tubing. I do know that a lot of copper tubing sold is rated "not for potable water". The reason is lead contamination. I think that is the difference. It may also refer to the thickness of the pipe walls.
The number of joints should not be a consider for durability. Once sweated they are as strong as the pipe. Ease of installation might be a consideration.
I just did an attic run in a house I own. I used copper, enclosed it in the best foam pipe insulation I could find and covered it with 10" of insulation. The problem with pipe in the attic is not caused by the temperature but by the wind chill that reaches the pipe. Tradition fiberglass does not block blown air hence the use of the foam insulation. Cellulose is a tad better for blown air but then you have the corrosive effect of the chemicals used to treat it
Best wishes
Colbyt
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Are you doing this to add a continous loop of hot at the sink? You will definitely get the hot water quicker, but you will have loss. Your HWH may cycle a little more than usual.
That being said I would definitely use copper, and pray that the copper under slab is insulated. We are replacing alot of radiant tubing inn concrete slabs due to breakdown of the pipes from the concrete ( at least I think that is why it is breaking down) too late had a long week brain is dead. Why not just put in a point of use hot water heater under the sink. Depending on your electric rate that may be alot cheaper.
--
Bob Pietrangelo
snipped-for-privacy@comcast.net
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No loop - I am replacing a 3/4 copper that is in the concrete with a 1/2 inch copper that will run overhead and be insulated.
I have considered a POU small water heater under the sink.
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Of the copper, one it thicker than the other. Don't remember offhand which is the thicker, but should be the one that costs the most.
Also look at the Plex (however it is spelled) type of pipe. It had a bad reputation in the past, but it was not the pipe but the couplings. I just had my house replumbed from copper a couple of years ago.
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Harry Everhart wrote:

run
get
feet
to
What
CPVC.
CPVC/PVC = easy, usually cheaper than copper a0nd very simple to repair or make corrections/additions. Got a leaking joint, a can of glue, a piece of pipe, couple fitting and a hacksaw, job done in a few minutes at very little cost. My experiences in repair are from my sprinkler system that has frozen at times. They are both as durable, if not more so, than copper (they don't corrode). For looks use copper. Me, I redid my entire house with CPVC 20 years ago and haven't had any problems at all.
Harry K
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Go with Pex or copper.
Pex is better IMHO
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Many years ago my grandfather had been suffering for many years with illness, The doctor finally determined that corrosion from the copper pipes in his house was poisoning him with small amounts of copper sulfate over the years.
My father ripped out all the copper pipes and replaced with CPVC and also used it in his own house when he built it. My grandfathers health improved then. My mother still lives in the house my father built (he built it all himself) using the CPVC, been 35 years now. Never had one problem and is in a crawl space, not insulated.
MC

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What is pex Brian - never heard of it. Harry
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Just to get you started. Approved for hot and cold potable water supply. http://www.wattsradiant.com/waterpex.html
wrote:

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Michael Baugh wrote:

Doesn't it require some expensive tools to make the joints? From what little reading I have done on it it sounds like a good to excellent system but I see nothing in it to recommend it over CPVC other than it being flexible for easy old construction rehab.
Harry K
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PEX is cross linked Polyethylene. It is suitable for hot or cold water. It is less brittle and more freeze resistant than CPVC which is Chlorinated Poly Vinyl Chloride. PEX comes in 20 foot lengths and 100 foot and 500 foot coils. You can get compression fittings for PEX. They are made by Qest and are called Quick-Tite fittings. You can run one loop through the attic with the only joints being at the ends. It is just like pulling romex, only for water. PEX comes in 1/2" and 3/4". The smaller size will get you hot water faster, but you will have lower pressure at the faucet.
Copper cones in 50 foot coils and 20' Sticks. It can also be ordered in 100 foot coils, but not all suppliers cary those lengths. K is the heaviest, followed by L, then M which is the lightest pressure rated grade. DWV is availible in 1-1/4 inch and larger. It is Drainage, Waste and Vent (Sewer Pipe). It is lighter than M and not rated for Pressure. DWV only comes in sticks and is not widely used in my part of the country. AC&R is pressure rated for Air Conditioning and Refrigeration. It is dehydrated and sealed. It is more expensive than water tubing. It is approximately equal to type L in pressure rating.
This may be more information than you wanted, but should help you make an informed decission. I would recommend the PEX with Quick Tite Fittings as the best choice in your situation. It is up to you if you use the sticks or coils. If you have to push the pipe through the attic, the sticks would be better. If you can pull it, I recommend the coils for fewer joints. Remember, fittings add resistance to water flow also. An elbow is about equal to 10 feet in resistance, depending on the size.
Good luck.
Stretch
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No assumption of 'free' involved. If it had different configuration, it would be a 12 dollar tool for crimping coaxial cable, vinyl siding, whatever. I see it as a grotesquely overpriced tool. Ya know, the cell phone industry has made such strides because the true
product is not the phone, but the use of the communication system it connects with. So the phones are virtually 'free', but necessary for the connection. I see PEX in similar fashion. They could 'bundle' tools with the tubing, put it into installers hands, and if a tool gets lost, pay list price for a roll of 500 feet and get another tool. PEX has considerable future if they stop seeing it as an opportunity to
gouge the users on the price of the tools. And if they continue, they will get the attention of the Chinese 'knockoff artists' who will provide the tools for 'free' if you buy the PEX from a Chinese manufacturer, and there goes another U.S. company down the tubes because of failure to acknowledge international marketing patterns.
Michael, GOOD tools are worth the price, especially if you use them a lot. Everyt time I buy a cheap tool, it bites me in the A--. If you are just doing a one time project, you can often rent the good tool for a few bucks. If you are a professional, Buy a good tool, not a cheap knockoff. You won't regret it in the long run. Most home centers will rent the tool cheap if you buy the tubing from them. Or you could buy the Quick-Tite compression fittings and put everything together with a couple of crescent wrenches.
Stretch
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Far as I'm concerned, the price of the tools, and the lack of rigidity of the tubing are the main reasons for CPVC being seen as more suited. For applications such as radiant heating, being installed by the pros, it seems like a natural. Here's a site http://www.pexconnection.com/products.php?catID 4 showing crimping tools that cost nearly or over a hundred dollars because of their limited application and utilization. Seems to me that they should give you the tool when you ask for it with an order of over 500 feet of tubing.
As to the question, my vote is for copper. And Copper-Bond.
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No assumption of 'free' involved. If it had different configuration, it would be a 12 dollar tool for crimping coaxial cable, vinyl siding, whatever. I see it as a grotesquely overpriced tool. Ya know, the cell phone industry has made such strides because the true product is not the phone, but the use of the communication system it connects with. So the phones are virtually 'free', but necessary for the connection. I see PEX in similar fashion. They could 'bundle' tools with the tubing, put it into installers hands, and if a tool gets lost, pay list price for a roll of 500 feet and get another tool. PEX has considerable future if they stop seeing it as an opportunity to gouge the users on the price of the tools. And if they continue, they will get the attention of the Chinese 'knockoff artists' who will provide the tools for 'free' if you buy the PEX from a Chinese manufacturer, and there goes another U.S. company down the tubes because of failure to acknowledge international marketing patterns.
wrote in message

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