Do I need $6,000 water softener for 12 to 14 grains of calcium in well water? (2023 Update)

[dadiOH]

The water isn't salty, it has sodium carbonate in it - very little - not sodium chloride. There is no taste.

[Duesenberg]

Sears are on the brink of bankruptcy yet again. I wouldn't trust them for anything but a clearence sale...

Department stores and Bog box stores are poor choices for softeners but if the OP decides to go this route, stay away from Sears because if issues arise, you'll be far less likely to get help from them.

[homer]

He sized it by more than just the pipe size. He also sized it per your water hardness. The internal gear set is different for different water hardness. So if you are going to install it yourself, you have to ensure they ship you one with the proper gearset in it.

Mine uses a #4 gear set.

The one thing I dont like about my Kinetico is that it just plain doesnt run with an RO unit. The water flow rate is too low to turn the gears.

I have an aquarium and generate about 50 gallons of RO water a week for use in it. The RO unit has about a 4 to 1 waste water ratio, so its using about 200 gallons to make those 50 gals.

The softener is always needing a manual cycle because the RO unit just doesnt get the water flowing fast enough to turn the timing gears.

The Kinetico is actually a very nice unit. And of all the other brands I've ever owned, it is the most miserly with salt usage of them all. So the salesman may be correct with his salt estimates.

Mine's about 13 years old. Back in '99 it only cost $2000 to install.

[chaniarts]

he's mixing up r/o and softeners, knowing that you don't know any better.

yes, you can't use an r/o in place of a whole house softener, but they do similar things. the r/o will filter out a lot more 'stuff' than a softener though.

[krw]

It'll probably help with all of them but it's not perfect. If you let a water drop dry, it will leave a spot.

I bet he didn't mention that you'll be ingesting more sodium, either.

You shouldn't have any problem with them. Sodium (salt) dissolves readily in water.

...but... How about your pipes? ;-)

[krw]

What business is it of yours?

How about simply flushing toilets?

[micky]

I'll say.

[micky]

How does that work? Would he be getting more sodium than more people get from their home water? More than I get drinking city water, which is not hard to begin with iiuc, which comes entirely from reservoirs, fed by rain which goes directly, or which seeps through the ground, into the streams that feed the reservoirs.

Or only more sodium than he's getting now.

[micky]

I don't think so.

I stopped watching his first 15 minutes about 3 years ago when he increased his vulgarity. It wasn't gradual afaict, but a decision to say things that previously he wouldn't have said.

So now I only watch the second 15 minutes and usually only Headlines, which is almost always on Monday.

I don't remember hearing it from him more than 3 years ago either. At most I only watched sometimes.

I think I thought of it on my own. In person, I'm a very funny guy. Really.

I was in the hospital for 2 days about a month ago, and one nurse started laughing as soon as she entered my room, before I said anything.. I asked why. She said, I know you're going to be funny.

[micky]

"We"? Do that tomorrow. Without him.

[micky]

I was thinking that too. For one thing, there are probably standard sized drops and small drops. Or easier yet, he could have diluted whatever he's dropping into the water, so the drops could be standard size.

I'm not saying he did those things, but like you say, he is trying to sell him something. The OP needs al test by someone who isnt'.

[Robert Macy]

Glad you mentioned your 'sucess' at leaving well enough alone.

EVERYBODY talks about saving their hot water heater. I thought so too until...

In AZ well water water [approx 650 feet down] is extremely hard. Within 4 months of moving into new construction, never occupied home our Bradford electric failed! My first thoughts were @#$#@#$% well water just took that thing out. Upon calling Bradford customer service [very easy to reach, very knowledgeable] I was told 'don't mess with a water softener, our heaters are designed to work WITH hard water and if you use soft water, it takes a toll on them. It'll hurt them'

Wow, THAT from the people who MAKE hot water heaters!

I'm glad softeners cost a lot, are water hogs, and do untold environmental damage. Unless you know of one that works differently. Can't afford distillation.

So, now I just replace the heating element(s) every year [a cheap nuisance maintenance job] and live with the water the way it is. It DOES make good coffee. where we were before the city supplied water made the coffee smell like fish and produced some kind of solid semi- floating scuzz all over the inside of pot and cups.

Just a note, here in AZ the well water is supposed to be hard, leaves white crust everywhere, but rinsing while showering it FEELS softer than water we used to be in [city water deemed fairly soft] takes forever to rinse soap off, like when you're staying at a hotel with soft water and can never rinse off that soapy feeling.

Has anybody else got feedback from hot water heater manufacturers of repute [like Bradford] that claim their product is hurt by softeners?

[Ed Pawlowski]

Never heard of that.

You did rinse the soap off. That is what your skin feels like when you don't put a lot of minerals on it. First time you've been so clean.

Many hotels though, are changing the way they do things. Water is either hard or soft. Instead of making the water soft, they are reducing the amount of hardness. It is a cost savings for them and people unfamiliar with soft water don't get that smooth feel.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Good choice. Fleck is one of the best valves around for softeners.

[krw]

A softener replaces one calcium atom with two sodium atoms. That's just what it does.

More than unsoftened water, yes. Too much, well, that depends on the people and the water (how hard).

Impossible to know.

Obviously more than he's getting now. See above.

[krw]

I had to remove the aerators on all the faucets every couple of weeks and clean them out. The calcium looked like fine sand. The water spots were

*bad*. We only lived there for nine months but it was "interesting".

[Gomba]

There used to be a fella who posted here, by the name of Gary Slusser. A very knowledgeable guy in the water treatment industry.

Personally, I wouldn't spend that kind of money, you're getting hosed! I bought a softener through Gary a couple years back, he is no longer in business, retired, done. I spent a total of almost $800, with a Clack valve, shipped to the door. Installed it myself with about $50 worth of copper & shut offs.

Here's Gary's site with forums, you'll do yourself a huge favor by visiting & reading. He also has charts for properly sizing your softener.

I'd suggest sizing your own softener using his charts, visit a real lumber yard, some carry softeners you won't find at Sears or the big box stores. The ones around here sell the Fleck valve, which my understanding is also a good valve. I do believe you'll get away with paying under a grand, and won't have the tinker toy products sold by box stores.

[dadiOH]

A softwater salesman will tell you that the slippery feeling comes from your body's natural oils, a benefit of the soft water. He will also tell you that softwater makes your soap more effective. So how come the more effective soap didn't remove those "natural body oils"? That's what soap/detergent does...emulsify oil so you can get rid of it. IOW, the salesman is full of it.

One possibility for the slimy feeling is that you DO need to use less soap with soft water. However, regardless of how much soap you use, the water should easily remove it, IMO.

Another possibility is that the calcium carbonate that was in your water has been replaced with sodium carbonate. Both are bases but sodium carbonate has a considerably higher pH. Bases feel slippery. Moreover, if one calcium ion has been replaced with two sodium ions - as others in this thread say - then the amount of sodium carbonate is double the original amount of calcium carbonate. Your water now has a higher pH than previously.

I can't say (because I don't know) that the higher pH hinders the soap's effectiveness at emulsification but I do know that one aid to that process - in cooking, at least - is a mild acid.

[Ed Pawlowski]

He's half right. Water is a lubricant too. Without the mineral your skin does feel slippery when wet. I don't know about oils though, as you point out.

[Robert Macy]

If rinsing is NOT complete, and NEVER was, skin felt tight, drawn, itchy, so definitely thought something got left.

Ah HA! sodium carbonate, Yes that would explain why the water feels slick, plus explain why the skin doesn't feel good when dry - thought it was always poor rinsing, may not have been! May be skin's reaction to different ph. Plus, it is my understanding that one has to be very careful about shifting around the skin's ph; else fungus infection, or all kinds of ills can occur.

Thanks, one more reason to not spring for a water softener!