Dishwasher still leaving haze even without using any soap


Last week I posted pictures of my dishwasher that was leaving a cloudy haze on the glass. The very helpful suggestions were to try it with less soap as it might be soap buildup. So I ran it with just vinegar in the soap dispenser, rinse and a few cups in the tub. But still I got the same haze. It does seem to be cleaining the glasses fine as I smeared peanut butter over them, and they came out clean.
Could the inside plumbing of the machine be so full of hard water deposits to be causing this? Will repeated applications of vinegar clean it up or do I need to call a professional?
The odd thing is the cloudy haze goes right away as soon as I rinse the glasses with water in the sink. THe pictures are here:
http://www.mynonsense.net/temp /
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snipped-for-privacy@mynonsense.net wrote:

If you haven't already done so, take off the covered grill and remove and clean all the parts you have access to. I have a similar model and deposits on the grills & screens can restrict water flow enough to affect cleaning.
While you're at it, remove the cylindrical water height switch and clean that out too. (front left)
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I think my tenants did clean the grill area and said there was quite a bit of deposit that had to be cleaned. I will try cleaning the cylindrical water height switch. Does it just pop out or does it need to be unscrewed?
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On Sep 25, 11:30 am, snipped-for-privacy@mynonsense.net wrote:

How long have you had the dishwasher? How long has it been doing this?
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On Sep 25, 12:50 pm, snipped-for-privacy@columbus.rr.com wrote:

It is in a rental property so probably has seen 1-2 years of use. The current tenants are the one's who noticed this hazing. Perhaps it was doing it before, but the previous tenants found some solution?
My guess is all the vinegar I am adding is doing something to dissolve deposits . And these are the deposits causing the haze? Perhaps I need to run it through a cycle with just plain water and see what happens?
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On Sep 25, 8:30 am, snipped-for-privacy@mynonsense.net wrote:

There are some differing conditions that can generate the cloudy glasses that you're getting....and I've expereicned some of them personally.
Since you rinse away the cloudiness with fresh water from the tap .......we can eliminate soft water / excess detergent etching.
I don't remember if you mentioned where the dishwasher is located (local water hard? or soft?) but what your getting reminds me of the results I was getting in an older home in Tustin, CA. The local water was pretty hard & my glasses turned out cloudy.
Thinking I needed a new d/w & figuring I didn't need to worry about ruining the old one, I ran it with 2 cups of ZEP calcium, rust, lime remover (a cheaper but better ....imo... version of CLR). The water in the d/w foamed like crazy & I let the d/w do a soak/ scrub cycle.
I did this several times until the water no longer foamed and the Cal- Rod (water heating element) no longer showed hard water deposits.
Glasses came out fine thereafter but I started to use the energy saving option to decrease the hard water build up on the Cal-Rod.
I still had to do the ZEP thing a couple times per year but the glasses stayed clean.
cheers Bob
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snipped-for-privacy@mynonsense.net wrote:

We had a different problem with our dishwasher, which was buildup of detergent causing bubbles that prevented it from draining properly. The solution, which seemed highly doubtful at first, was to run the dw with no dishes and pour in about a quart of white vinegar before beginning the cycle. It worked. I have, in the past, used vinegar to remove haze from glassware. You might try running it with more vinegar, as I did. Then start out using about half the detergent for a load and see how it goes. Got a water softener? You might also want to try a "name brand" dw detergent if you have not already.
It is a litte "off the wall" but the test with a little vinegar might have dissolved detergent residue just enough to deposit it on the dishes you did that cycle. Don't know my detergent chemistry at all :o)
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I hate to post something so simple to an old thread BUT
Are you using the jet dri product and is the dispenser working? A DW does not work with soap only.
Also, IMO a quality powdered soap works better than those liquid guys.
Colbyt
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Colbyt wrote:

I agree with Colbyt's reply and in addition, a lot has to do with the water. When I 1st got a portable DW, some 40 years ago, we used it on Lake Michigan water with absolutely no problems. We then moved it to our present home where we had well water that was very hard. We had dark brown dishes. You should have seen the white stuff on them. We started using the rinse stuff and it helped a lot, but the best thing was a water softener. Now we are back to Lake Michigan water (same house) and it's good again without the water softener and even without the rinse agent.
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clipped

Lucky you - soft Lake Mich. water. I switched to liquid Cascade mainly because I don't use the dw very often and the powder turned to rock in the box. We don't keep the hot water very hot - well below the painful level - I fill only one dispenser, run it on regular cycle, and don't use a rinse. Perfect. Only two of us, so I hand wash most of the time. No water softener, but the water isn't too bad.
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That's why I immediately decant the powder detergent to a large glass bottle which closes tight. Never have any problem with powder hardening because of exposure to moisture while still in the box.

Mmm...you must have nice water or you live right!
I need to use one of those bottled rinse thingies. What is in those?
BTW. Plumber told me that it's best to set the water heater on "hot" for greater efficiency. Reason the installation instructions scare you into setting it on "medium" is so they won't get sued by some idiot burning themselves on "hot".
Just another example of the ridiculous disclaimers sold with every product for fear of litigation.
Your opinions?
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I have no clue what is in them. I know that commercial DW always use them and have always used them in my home machine. The cost to use is less than $1 per month if the machine is ran daily. The difference is glassware and silverware is the most noticable.
Around here the water is very hard and I have no water softner.

In the rental properties I set them at the lower recommended setting. Here it would be not legal for me to do otherwise. In my own home I keep it just short of scalding . Hot water should be hot.
Colbyt
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I was very surprised the first time I used a rinse aid. I opened the dishwasher and the entire stainless steel inside, along with everything in it, looked like it had just been wiped down. Not a water drop spot to be seen.

Dishwasher manufacturers often recommend running the hot water at the tap so when the dishwasher calls for water it's hot and not the cooled off water in the pipes.
R
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On Sat 27 Sep 2008 05:40:06a, Colbyt told us...

Rinse agents are surfactants which cause the water to sheet and flow off of the items in the dishwasher instead of remaining in beads or droplets of water which turn into spots when dried.

--
Wayne Boatwright

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clipped

Efficiency of dishwasher? Waste of energy?

"Idiots" aren't the only folks who get scalded in showers. 120 is hot enough to burn in about two to three seconds and a guest who isn't used to such hot water might get an unpleasant surprise.. I like hot water at the tap that isn't hot enough to hurt when I rinse dishes. Mechanical action is what cleans 'em at the sink and air dry is sanitary. Never a problem with any sort of gi illness that would relate to unsanitary dishes.

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Not picking a fight here cause I don't care how clean your dishes aren't.
180 degree final rinse cycle is required in all food service machines. This is a NSF standard.
And the lack thereof is considered a major violation of the Health code standards.
Colbyt
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Colbyt wrote:

I'm not operating a restaurant, so I don't have strangers coming in who haven't washed their hands since the last toilet or who are carrying hepatitis. I cup up chicken in the sink and rinse it well. 45 years of housekeeping and no illnesses of the type assoc. with lack of sanitation. Raised three children without any being scalded in the bath, too.
I use bleach to rinse mops and clean bathrooms regularly. That's where the nasty germs are :o) I use bleach in the laundry too - not for color - no pinkeye from bath linens.

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On Sat 27 Sep 2008 06:19:10a, Norminn told us...

Efficiency of cleaning. It has nothing to do with energy. Most all dishwasher detergents are designed to clean optimally at 140°F or higher.

Washing dishes in the sink is an entirely different process than using a dishwasher, and moderately hot water will do the job.
120°F water temperature is totally inadequate for dishwasher washing. That's why many high-end dishwashers have special heaters to boost the washing temperature for each fill of the machine. In that case, it's perfectly fine to keep the hot water tank set at 120°F.
Our contractor provided a mid-line dishwasher in our new home, and while it has a heater for drying the dishes and *maintaining but not increasing* the water temperature, it did a lousy job of washing the dishes with the hot water tank set at 120°F. As soon as I increased the water tank temperature to 140°F. the dishwasher cleaned flawlessly.
--
Wayne Boatwright

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Never used a rinse aid until I installed the new dishwasher which strongly recommended its use. What a difference! That's probably the simplest/fastest/cheapest way to attack the problem, will most likely solve the problem, and the future cost will be paid for by the tenant as a consumable.
R
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Thanks for all replies, the dishwasher is now working properly! I put a 2 cups of CLR ( Calcium , lime , rust ) remover in it and ran that. It started giving off a little smoke and then foamed a lot. After it completed, I ran a few dirty dishes with no soap, and some vinegar in the rinse. They came out perfect, no more white cloudy haze! Here's what I emailed my tenants:
The dishwasher is now working properly. I believe all the hard water deposits have been cleaned out . At home you will see two glasses I smeared with peanut butter, jam and the french onion dip. You can compare them to the hand washed/dried ones. THe trick is to use vinegar in the rinse AND use a lot less soap. If there is any residue it is due to the soap buildup . To fix the soap buildup, start off with just a tablespoon of soap . Also trying other brands can make a big difference according to the online folks, i.e cascade or palmolive. Also water needs to be hot for soap to dissolve, so i raised the water heater temp slightly. Run the sink faucet so the hot water comes, before starting the DW. Also don't let dishes sit and let food cake on them overnight and rinse before placing them in the machine. And also don't overload it as it is not going to clean effictively.
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