DISH network tip.

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On 9/25/2015 6:26 PM, Don Y wrote:

I remember driving a Rogue. The seats were OK, but it drove kind of clunky, so I marked that off my list, too.

I don't mind if the color is a medium shade of tan or grey. I just can't stand black.
--
Maggie

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On 9/26/2015 3:53 PM, Muggles wrote:

We found the Nissan's to be sort of "chevy" class vehicles. Just not the same quality that we were looking for in a "long term" purchase.

I had noted the "scuff marks" in our previous vehicle. It was just a niggling little detail that irked me -- the car always looked like it hadn't been cleaned (on the inside).
Repeating this with the *new* car seems like we failed to learn that lesson! :-/
I will start looking carefully at the various shoes that I wear to see if it is a fault of the *shoes*. Then, just eliminate the offender(s)!
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On 9/26/2015 9:10 PM, Don Y wrote:

[...]

Then again, isn't a car supposed to show a little bit of use?
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On 9/26/2015 8:33 PM, Muggles wrote:

*Use*, not "signs that someone got in and then OUT of it"!
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On 9/26/2015 10:45 PM, Don Y wrote:

Isn't that "use"?
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Maggie

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On 9/26/2015 8:47 PM, Muggles wrote:

Opening and closing a door would probably not fit with *most* folks' idea of use!
"Wow! Why are you selling that vehicle for such a low price? What sort of mileage does it have?" "Milagee? *none*! *BUT*, I've opened and closed the doors 372,928 times!"
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On 9/27/2015 12:18 AM, Don Y wrote:

Hey, you're an engineer, right? :) Any use is equivalent to use. Isn't that why they test the doors and test the materials they use on the interior? If the interior materials show wear (or don't handle wear very well), that's also one factor I look at when I'm looking for a used car.
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These days cars have become such a commodity item that seating comfort may be the main thing I look for. There isn't a "Chevy" anymore. You just get a GM and the same parts may be in any car in the line. I had a Chrysler with a Mitsubisi engine in it. Now I am in a Honda Prelude and a Ford truck OTOH my newest vehicle is 15 years old. My wife has a fairly new Lincoln but I am not that "driven". A car is just a piece of metal that gets me up to the store. I used to drive 50,000+ a year when I was working and I am over the car thing.
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On 9/25/2015 11:40 AM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

I'm just happy my old faithful van still works!
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Maggie

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On 9/24/2015 4:46 PM, Don Y wrote:

A while back we went looking for cars and found a subaru that was close to something I'd want to drive. They dealership wanted a specific price, but I wanted to pay a different amount. When we sat down to talk numbers they told me the price was already on the car, and then I told them how much I was willing to pay for it. The sale man looked at me and told me that was impossible, but he'd get his manager to come talk with me. The manager told me the same thing the salesman said about the price being rock solid on the car, and I told the manager what I was willing to pay for it. They both looked at me like "well if you want THIS car you'll pay what we're asking." I looked at them and said, "OK. Thanks for your time." I got up and walked out of the building and left the lot. You should have seen the looks on their faces. They could have sold me the car at my price, but they lost a potential customer because they weren't willing to come down on it even a little bit. I've got no problem walking away from a purchase. They thought they had a sale because I liked the car.

I guess it's pretty bad if the salesman can't answer easy questions!
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YOu left out the important part. Did you go somewhere else and get the car or did you get something else ?
I was going to buy a new car that was one year old at the end of the season and the credit union had a deal they would beat anyones interist by a certain percent down to a certain percent. I had worked out a deal on a car and then asked them if they could match the credit union rate. They could not. I asked them for a paper saying they would give me a rate near the minimum of the credit union. They told me they could not and it would be dishonest.. Said so long to them and went to a dealer with a new car just like the other but a current model for almost the same price and got the paper I wanted.
At that time I had the money to buy the car, but the CDs were at 5 % and the credit was slightly less than 4 %.
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On 9/25/2015 9:50 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

I still haven't purchased a car, yet. I'm waiting until I find what I really want for the price I want to pay for it.

We can get great rates at our credit union, too, but my old van still runs and it's paid for, and I haven't found the car that has what I want on it, yet. I'm patient, and will buy the car when I find the one that has what I want.
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On 9/25/2015 7:19 AM, Muggles wrote:

I was "window shopping" for a vehicle many (many many!) years ago. I wasn't yet "in the market" but, rather, just trying to get myself up to speed on product offerings at a leisurely pace (i.e., if I had some spare time and happened to be NEAR a dealership, I *might* drop in). A (pushy) salesman once threw a question at me like: "What would I have to do to get you to buy that car, today??"
As I had already told him I was NOT in the market, I replied, "Sell it to me for $5,000" (sticker was close to 30 at the time).
"Well, come sit down and we'll see what we can do!"
I reacted as if I'd been slapped in the face: "Do you REALLY think I am that stupid as to think you are GOING to sell it to me for $5,000? You asked me a question -- I gave you an honest answer. If you *ARE* going to sell it to me for $5,000, then I'll write you a check NOW and you can hand me the bill of sale. There's no need to 'come sit down'. So, the fact that you are NOT ready with a bill of sale in your hands suggests you are dishonest, insulting or value your time far less than I value mine. Which is it?"
[If assault was not a crime, I am *sure* he would have punched me in the face!]
We don't spend much time on price. We figure out what the car is *worth* to us (we've also got alternate choices to choose from in our mind when we reach this stage of the "game"). If a seller wants to hit our price range, we'll buy. If not, we walk. We don't waste time "dickering": "There's another dealership across the street. Granted, they don't sell *this* vehicle. But, they sell this *other* vehicle that we would buy if yours was unavailable, out of stock, unreasonably priced, the wrong color, etc. Maybe *they* want to sell a car, today?"
We figure folks sell things for a reason: to make money. We want to make money in *our* dealings so it's only fair to let others make money in theirs.
I was sitting down with a client ~30 years ago to draft our contract. Being young/naive, I was, of course, under the impression that this was a "competition": each of us trying to get the BEST deal -- which meant "at the other party's expense!".
The gentleman negotiating for the client was very frank: "Look, Don. We *want* you to make money on this deal. *YOU* are not our customer! We're not keen on making you filthy rich -- but, we realize that if we nickel and dime you, there's a good chance that you'll underperform on this contract (which means we get something of lesser quality than it might otherwise be) or, if we cut too close to the bone, you may simply WALK AWAY from it (which means we've lost all that time you've spent on it and have NOTHING to show for it -- even if we get to keep our cash!). If you make money on this deal, we figure you will be around for the *next* deal. You have something that we WANT to buy (your expertise) and don't want to drive you out of OUR market over a few dollars!"

"What role does this dipstick play -- tranny, power steering, etc.?"
The fact that you don't know means you aren't INTERESTED in your own product! It suggests that he wouldn't BUY his own product!
When I talk about something I've done/designed/selected, I'm *excited* about it; I want to *share* that excitement with others so they can appreciate the points that I'm describing. To just rattle off details in a flat monotone (or, not even know those details) suggests a "ho hum" event (decision, product, etc.)
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On 9/25/2015 10:18 AM, Don Y wrote:

LOL! I think the people I walked out on felt the same way when I got up and walked out.

I wish more employers had that attitude.

I feel the same way.
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On 9/25/2015 8:28 AM, Muggles wrote:

Most people are easily intimidated/coerced. They don't have strong opinions because they haven't *thought* (using their own braincases) about the issues they are facing. Easier to "go along" with an outside force than to *oppose* it!

I had a couple of good clients/employers over the years. But, by far, most were pretty bad -- especially the Manglement folks.
An employer at a summer job (while in school) once called me into his office to lecture me on my "brutal honesty" in filling in my timecard (I didn't have to "punch a clock" -- office staff could "write in" their arrival/departure times). If I showed up at 8:03, I wrote down "8:03" -- AS IF I had had "punched" the clock! Of course, I wouldn't leave until 5:03PM (or later) so I wasn't cheating them out of any time!
His objection was that my honesty put *him* in a touchy position: why haven't you *disciplined* this employee for being habitually late?
This was interesting, to a youngster. I'd naturally assumed the risk was entirely *mine* -- I was the "offender"!

No one wants to listen to an accountant recounting the mundane calculations in the P&L he prepared. OTOH, they *might* be interested in the story *behind* those figures!
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On 9/25/2015 11:31 AM, Don Y wrote:

I get into trouble with some people because I reject the notion that they even have the authority or right to tell me what to do or not do. I'll make up my own mind and once I do I'll stick with my decision. It would be easier to just go along with some people, but it depends on what they're wanting from me.
[...]
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On 9/25/2015 4:04 PM, Muggles wrote:

Societal and social norms allow select people to have greater control over our actions at different times/situations.
A police officer pulls you over and you *will* stop. When he requests your DL+registration, you *will* provide it. You surrendered these liberties when you consented to driving a vehicle.
When you visit a friend, colleague, you are morally obligated to honor their wishes regarding your behavior in their home. If they ask you to leave, you *will* leave. If they ask you to take off your shoes ("please"), you will or will not enter, etc.
At work, your employer has control (to a large degree) over your actions, etc. You're not free to exercise your will or opinion regardless of how "correct" it may (or may not) be.
The times where no such implicit constraints are imposed on your behavior is the most interesting: are you cooperative? obstructionist? combative? etc.
We don't smoke. If I'm in the middle of a public field (outdoors, beyond the reach of legal restrictions on smoking) and the person I'm speaking with chooses to smoke while speaking to me, I have a choice: - do I ask him (politely) to please not smoke around me (why not??)? - do I object to his inconsiderate blowing smoke in my face (not intentionally but, rather, out of sheer ignorance)? - do I put up with his habit recognizing he has little physical choice in the matter? - do I walk away?
If I'm throwing a dinner party, do I feel obligated to invite him if I *know* he won't honor my request NOT to smoke?
For a humorous alternate example, imagine having a friend with a health condition that results in excessive, fragrant flatulence... do I invite him to that same dinner party -- knowing it may make my other guests uncomfortable? Where do my obligations end and my freedom of choice take over?
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On 9/25/2015 6:58 PM, Don Y wrote:

Had one of my sons X girl friends get in the middle of a family disagreement while she was at my house. I asked her to step outside on the porch and wait for us to talk, and she refused. I nearly picked her up by her ear to escort her out, and my son could see THAT look in my eyes, too, but I could see the look in his eyes saying to me "Please don't do that...", so I didn't toss her out on her ear. BUT, I REALLY WANTED TO!

Lots of choices there! lol
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On 9/26/2015 4:02 PM, Muggles wrote:

As I said, it's a *moral* obligation. There are many folks who see the world as revolving around themselves and don't feel "obligated" to play by social rules.
I tend to be very clinical in dealing with "boundaries".
Many years ago, I was invited to my boss's home for dinner. It was early November -- T-day on the near horizon. They had a young daughter (8?). I showed up with a Godiva chocolate *turkey* for her. She was clinging to her mom's leg as I walked in.
I handed the turkey to the *mother*. She looked at me, puzzled: "But, isn't this for <daughter>?" I said, "Yes. But, I don't think she should be accepting a gift/candy from a stranger (despite the fact that Mom & Dad obviously *both* know me!)"
I.e., daughter knows where the turkey came from. Daughter knows who to thank. *Mom* will decide when -- and if -- she can eat it. I have no role in this beyond my giving.
Likwise, I am "honorary Uncle" to many kids (some of which are now considerably "grown"). And, have been welcomed into many families' "inner circles". So, I see the families "in their normal/home environments" -- with all the blemishes, etc.
Over the years, have seen many arguments (between parents), many times watched kids being chastised/disciplined, etc. Not my business to interfere. Not my business to offer advice (unless directly asked). I should do my best to not make any of them more uncomfortable than they probably are, already (i.e., they KNOW I am present and yet have allowed things to escalate to this point)
Also, not my business to share what I've seen/heard with anyone outside that group (e.g., *their* inlaws, aunts, etc.)
OTOH, I have seen others in similar situations quick to volunteer advice, take sides, etc.
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On 9/26/2015 10:43 PM, Don Y wrote:

Perhaps one day Uncle Monster will relate how he'd handle the situation. Probably pick up the little girl, throw her to the ceiling a couple times, chew on her arm till she gets hiccoughs from giggling too long, and then throw the girl over her shoulder, carry her in to her seat at the table. Followed by a raise, promotion, and an offer to be babysitter for the girl.
- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus . www.lds.org . .
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