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wrote in message news:4cdeb0e8$0$24983

Pete, you and I both know that an empty gas cylinder is not the same as a balky battery pack. Anyone who has owned more than one cordless tool already knows from their own experience how different the two concepts are. An LP gas cylinder really has no internals to go bad. When you recharge it, you are recharging a total empty container. A battery pack contains a lot of very expensive batteries. Even at wholesale they will perhaps cost $1000. There is no comparison to LP in that vector. Returned, it's empty and contents worth zero. Once you let a say $3000 retail battery pack out of your site, new off the dealer's floor, do you *really* believe, just by rough statistical inference, you'll get an almost battery pack in exchange?
I'm not knocking you, I think that eventually that will be the way things are done and it will happen quickly when and if battery sizes can be standardized enough. And when gasoline companies decide to institute the system in most of their stations. And when the carmaker puts a coop deal in place with one or more gas retailers. And when people would be willing to join essentially a hi-tech battery rental club like Blockbuster because you would need to prevent the fraud that's likely to occur with items worth $1K or over. The scammers will eventually figure out a way to game the system and collect expired packs to swap into the system for good ones. I just don't see people willing to take the chance.
The only way this works is if the company doing the fueling actually owns the batteries, has a wide enough chain of stations to guarantee its* usefulness to the people. Customers will probably have to join a club and submit to vetting because even empty, a discharged battery pack has tremendously more value than a dead LP cylinder. The opportunity for hanky-panky is enormous. Why do you think most stores won't accept returned battery packs for most nearly anything? No way to tell how much value has been sucked out of it. If people are ripping off copper pipes, they figure out how to go for tasty, fresh lithium ion cells in a new swapped battery.
There's one even worse scenario. You've forgotten to recharge at home and now you're forced to go to the Stop'n'Swap. That nice new 200 mile per charge battery of yours gets swapped out for one at the end of its life cycle that provides maybe only 150 miles. If what you mostly do is charge your own car at home that translates into a significant, perceptible loss of value in one swap.
There are lots and lots and lots of obstacles to getting this one right, but I think it is the right way to go and we'll get there eventually.

I hear you, and want to believe that's going to work, but in a world where I've seen people actually cut out the original tape from a rental VHS tape and replace it with a poorly made copy during my two month stint as a video clerk, I think swapped $1 to 3K battery packs represent great temptation. Hell, I saw a notice at the pizzeria from the Feds warning that the bleach and upgrade people were back making $5's into $50's, a laborious process, to be sure. People are just no damn good and I ain't swapping them the battery in my electric car until I know it's dying! (-:
I've got more than a fear what will evolve are superchargers that plug into a special 408V 50A circuits you get installed in your garage and they'll flash charge your batteries in 5 minutes. Sure, there will be some meltdowns, maybe a few explosions but Americans are NOT big swappers of really expensive stuff. There's no time sharer owner I know of that doesn't have "The Timeshare From Hell" story.
But seriously, I've seen battery current capacity rise constantly over the last 20 years. Every new rechargeable NiMH cell has a little more MaH's capacity than the last and there are (were?) AA cells that charged in 15 minutes or less.
I think "fast charge" stations will be the future, and not "swap charge" ones.
-- Bobby G.
*"its/it's" have got to be the worst words in the world. Why? Because IT'S very illogical in ITS usage. The way we say things like "This is Pete's message" implies possession, but it's ITS meaning is clear" even though. How fair is that? It's almost as bad as those treacherous twos. Too many, too different to be useful. And if three twos aren't enough, there are tutus.
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On 11/14/2010 5:07 PM, Robert Green wrote:

If the battery pack is made too easy to change, you'll have people coming back to their parked EV and no battery pack. A while back we had some country boys who were stealing catalytic converters off parked cars, it was so fast and easy for them to swipe them. A number of folks were left with an expensive repair bill. I wonder what the auto insurance companies are going to do to handle the high cost of electric vehicle repairs and replacements?
TDD
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One possible solution to that problem would be to embed an encrypted serial number in a chip that's permanently encased inside the battery pack, where you'd have to tear apart and destroy the entire battery pack to get to it. The chip would be ROM that is only programmable with the serial # once at the factory. That would uniquely identify the individual battery, it's date of manufacture, etc. It could also allow storage of a table that would contain information showing each time it was charged, how low it was when the charge started, finished, etc.

Are you sure there is no technical way to determine it? I would bet that with the right test equipment you could determine with some degree of confidence the condition of the battery pack.

So you just swap it again.

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The Kia Rio is $13K MSRP, and doesn't produce nearly the smug as the Volt.

No. Wait until they require a separate meter on the outlet to collect the highway taxes due.

Easy. You'll get an official California IOU for $11K.
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snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

Oregon officials were/are talking about some sort of road use/mileage fee to replace the gas tax. I'm not sure what happened to that idea.
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On 11/13/2010 7:30 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Those pesky details again.. It is just so much easier to make claims without considering them..

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On 11/12/2010 10:34 PM, notbob wrote:

Did you think about what you just wrote? If anyone can do it with their windmill can do it why aren't they? Did the oil companies hire saboteurs to loosen the bolts on all of the windmills?
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On 11/12/2010 10:34 PM, notbob wrote:

I costs too much and it always will because you have to generate the electricity. When we have cheap electricity then that is doable. Wind generators are expensive and solar too.
Slowly, but indefinitely, from

Duh yerself!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#In_practice
There are a lot of people pursuing practical solutions as well as working on the pure science.
Jeff

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wrote:

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notbob wrote:

It's not being pursued due to both the extreme ineffficiency of electrical hydrogen production which makes only high energy density "green" electricity sources such as nuclear and hydroelectric (tidal and conventional) the only practical energy sources to produce hydrogen "greenly", and the huge issues with storing enough hydrogen in a motor vehicle to give it a useable range and the long refill time required which makes it that much more impractical.
You really need to research beyond the hype and understand the science and the limitations.
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notbob wrote:

Ah, but the question a logical person would ask is: "What then?"
Unless the homemade electrolysis machine is being used to fill a balloon, the produced gas now has to be compressed. The compressor will use more energy than the captured Hydrogen will ever produce.
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It doesn't have to make sense. It only has to look green on the outside. The "efficiencies" come in the form of government handouts (the red part).
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<...snipped...>

runs on a fuel that is not available.
--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org
  Click to see the full signature.
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On 11/12/2010 9:16 PM, notbob wrote:

hydrogen.
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wrote:

Hey, it worked fine for Zeppelins, well maybe with a few exceptions
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RBM wrote:

It also wasn't being used as a fuel for them, it was used as an essentially non-consumable so they didn't have to find a continuous source.
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notbob wrote:

Not really, the technology works reasonably well. The DEF tanks on most of these vehicles hold enough for about 5,000mi, so it's not really any more difficult than filling up your washer fluid.
I have a 2009 diesel with just the DPF and it works just fine, and I'm ok with it not blowing clouds of black soot everywhere.

Dunno on that, but of course Hydrogen isn't an energy source, just a carrier and isn't "green" unless the hydrogen is produced from a "green" energy source like nuclear, wind, solar or hydro.
I recall BMW did/does have a diesel car that utilized a DPF and possibly DEF/SCR.
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I'm not sure how other manufacturers are doing it, but Sprinters have two separate types of systems. The earlier 2007-2009 use particulate filters, and the 2010 began using Adblu urea and don't have particulate filters. In the Sprinter blog there are several posts from members that have paid $3000 for particulate filter replacement. They also talk about having them cleaned for $500. As far as the price of Def, two weeks ago I needed some and the best I was able to get it for was $10 a gallon. I'm told Mercedes gets $20, so I didn't feel too bad. Here's a site that explains the Sprinter systems: http://www.ourexcellentadventures.com/2010/01/17/scr-egr-def-nox-dpf-and-sprinter-engines/
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RBM wrote:

http://www.ourexcellentadventures.com/2010/01/17/scr-egr-def-nox-dpf-and-sprinter-engines/

Center or Flying J.
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I have read that Pilot and TA truckstops have it at the pump for $3, but I don't have either near me. I'm sure, like any other fertilizer, if you buy it in bulk, it's dirt cheap. The problem with Def is that it has a two year shelf life, so you can't even stock up
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