diesel exhaust fluid

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On 11/13/2010 7:11 AM, George wrote:

I seem to recall coming across a plan for H2 filling stations that would take NG and extract and store hydrogen on site for fueling vehicles. I'm not sure if the station would also produce electrical power to send back into the grid but that would make it a viable and practical solution.
TDD
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<...snipped...>

Please explain how this would be done and how and why it would make it "viable and practical"
Wouldn't it be much simpler to just fuel the vehicles directly on the NG at these stations? There would be no losses from inneficiences in conversion, and the technology for using NG in vehicles already exists and is used in many areas of the country.
--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org
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On 11/13/2010 4:00 PM, Larry W wrote:

Give the people what they want, I prefer a fuel with more energy per unit but some people want hydrogen! I believe CNG would be simpler because it is already widely available.

You can purchase a CNG filling station for your home.
http://www.ewsews.com/cngfill.html
TDD
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On 11/12/2010 10:28 PM, notbob wrote:

I follow this area pretty closely and I don't remember seeing the proof you mentioned. Do you have any references?
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notbob wrote:

Sorry, you are incorrect. Hydrogen was proved to be *useable* as a motor fuel 30 years ago, useable and viable are not the same thing. While an engine will run just fine on hydrogen gas and produce essentially no emissions, that does not mean in any way that hydrogen is viable, practical or "green" as a motor vehicle fuel.
Key problems with the "miracle" hyrdogen fuel:
1. Hydrogen is not an energy source, it is only a carrier, essentially a battery. The hydrogen has to be produced using an actual energy source.
2. If the energy source used to produce hydrogen isn't "green" the hydrogen isn't "green". This applies to hydrogen produced from natural gas, and hydrogen produced using electricity from coal fired electric plants. Only hydrogen produced from "green" sources such as nuclear, solar, wind, hydroelectric and the like can actually be called "green".
3. Hydrogen is impractical to fill and transport in meaningful quantities for a motor vehicle. There are basically two ways to store it at a useable density, either at very high pressure, or as a cryogenic liquid, both of which require a lot of energy to get to that state, have dangers associated with transport, and in the case of hydrogen as a cryogenic liquid, they have to continuously vent hydrogen as it boils off whether it is used in the engine or not.
Assuming you produce the hydrogen from a "green" source, you still have a similar problem to pure electric vehicles, the issue of range and the ability to refuel in a reasonable amount of time comparable to the <10min to fuel a liquid fueled vehicle.
The only practical solution to this issue is to use standardized fuel "containers" and to have an automated process to swap that fuel container with a "filled" one at the fueling station vs. trying to "fill" a "container" permanently mounted in the vehicle.
This essentially means a standardized bottom access port in the vehicle where you can pull it into position at the fueling station and an automated mechanism would remove your EV battery or hydrogen fuel canister and replace it with a filled/charged one in a matter of a few minutes comparable to fueling a liquid fueled vehicle. Otherwise fueling is an impractically long process and few people will tolerate that limitation.
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LOL! It was proved 'workable' back then, practical no. And to answer your question you are aiming at the:
"the big bad oil companies bought up all the patents and are keeping it off the market so they won't lose their market'
Grow up!
Harry K
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Nobody figured out where you get the hydrogen in any economically reasonable source. Most comes from natural gas.
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?????
Hydrogen comes from a simple electrical process. Anyone with a solar panel or wind turbine can produce it. Slowly, but indefinitely, from renewable energy sources. Why do you think this is not technology no one is pursuing? DUH!
nb
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Yeah- but what do you do with the byproduct of breaking the H2 off those water molecules. Don't want the kids breathing in that gassy by-product.
Jim
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It is toxic stuff! ...but so is the raw material, so perhaps it's a wash.
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I suppose you also believe that the oil companies, in a vast conspiracy, bought up the mythical carburetor that we've heard about for decades that got 100MPG. Let's do a bit of critical thinking. We have car manufacturers worldwide in dire straights. GM and Chrysler went bankrupt. Yet, we have this miracle hydrogen solution and not one of them in the entire world is commercializing a great solution that would not only keep them in business, but make them billions. I can think of two reasons for that:
1 - Some vast conspiracy against hydrogen cars.
2 - Hydrogen isn't nearly as practical and cheap a solution as you believe it to be.
As for anyone with a solar panel or wind turbine being able to produce it, that's true. Now tell us how you produce enough of it, how many solar panels are required, how you get it into a form that can be stored safely in a car to give a reasonable driving range, etc. List all the equipment required, it's cost, and show us that hydrogen is a viable solution.
If all this is so readily doable, why don't YOU start the company to do it and you'll be the next Bill Gates.
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I suppose you also believe that the oil companies, in a vast conspiracy, bought up the mythical carburetor that we've heard about for decades that got 100MPG. Let's do a bit of critical thinking. We have car manufacturers worldwide in dire straights. GM and Chrysler went bankrupt. Yet, we have this miracle hydrogen solution and not one of them in the entire world is commercializing a great solution that would not only keep them in business, but make them billions. I can think of two reasons for that:
1 - Some vast conspiracy against hydrogen cars.
2 - Hydrogen isn't nearly as practical and cheap a solution as you believe it to be.
As for anyone with a solar panel or wind turbine being able to produce it, that's true. Now tell us how you produce enough of it, how many solar panels are required, how you get it into a form that can be stored safely in a car to give a reasonable driving range, etc. List all the equipment required, it's cost, and show us that hydrogen is a viable solution.
If all this is so readily doable, why don't YOU start the company to do it and you'll be the next Bill Gates.
Like I said, when they build a "practical solution" we will buy it. Any practical solution would have to stand on it's own legs, unlike this current electric car stupidity, which without govt subsidizing wouldn't sell a single unit.
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diesel exhaust fluid:
snip

Excellent post.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

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On Nov 13, 7:30am, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

GM spenty boatloads of money before giving up on hydrogen for now and building the chevy volt.
Few would of been willing to spend a $100,000 for a car with limited fuel avability.:(
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I'm waiting to see what happens with the Volt. While not costing $100K, it still seems mighty dubious to me. It costs $40K+ and has an electric range of about 100 miles. After that, the small gas generator kicks in. Even with the FED tax credit of $12K, which comes out of the taxpayers pocket, you're still paying $28K for it. And it's in a compact car that has parts and similar size features to cars costing $17K. Combine that with very limited recharge locations and that to recharge any electric car in your garage in a reasonable time requires a 240V, 50A+ circuit, it doesn't sound very practical to me. Anyone here want to buy one?
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I'm waiting to see what happens with the Volt. While not costing $100K, it still seems mighty dubious to me. It costs $40K+ and has an electric range of about 100 miles. After that, the small gas generator kicks in. Even with the FED tax credit of $12K, which comes out of the taxpayers pocket, you're still paying $28K for it. And it's in a compact car that has parts and similar size features to cars costing $17K. Combine that with very limited recharge locations and that to recharge any electric car in your garage in a reasonable time requires a 240V, 50A+ circuit, it doesn't sound very practical to me. Anyone here want to buy one?
I heard that in California, the state and local govts are also subsidizing the volt, so the car winds up costing those environmentally concerned a mere $17K, which is about what your garden variety gasoline go cart costs. and I thought California was broke already
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RBM wrote:

The way to make people who can use EVs buy them is not to subsidize the car itself, it is to provide free charging electricity from some nice new "green" nuclear plants.
The way to make EVs useable by more people is to standardize the battery packs and implement automated pack swapping "fuel" stations so you can drive into the "fuel" station with a low "tank" and drive out with a full tank" in <10min just like a liquid fueled vehicle.
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<stuff snipped>

I read about an Israeli firm trying to push that idea. I, for one, wouldn't be willing to drive into a station and "swap" my possibly brand new but discharged battery pack for someone else's POS that could be on its last charge. There are a LOT of kinks to work out with that idea if they can be worked out at all. Just hang around at the returns desk at a big box store to find out how honest some people are. Swapping $1000 battery packs with total strangers? Ha.
-- Bobby G.
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Robert Green wrote:

The concept has been well proven in other area. LP tank exchange is one most people are familiar with, you never have to deal with an out of date tank, testing, etc. you just swap an empty for a full and the supply company takes care of the rest. The same has been in place much longer for high pressure industrial gas cylinders like Oxygen, Acetylene, Argon, CO2, etc. and again it saves you dealing with cylinder hydrotesting and other headaches.
The EV battery only has to be good enough to take you to your next battery swap in the 100-200 miles or so they will max out at anyway. The "fuel stations" will have sophisticated charger / testers to requalify and charge the pack each time and reject ones going out of spec. The end user will never have to deal with an expiring pack directly, the recycling value of the pack and the assumption that each user provided a new pack into the pool is sufficient and the residial cost of the expiring batteries will be actored into the "fueling" cost just like the costs of cylinder hydrotesting and occasional rejection is factored into the industrial gas costs.
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IMO, that is the only way to make an EV sensible for anything but trips around town. It is not practical to stop every 200 miles for a 6 hour recharge. Right now, in 200 miles I can fill my has tank for $20 to $25. I have to be able to swap the battery for <$20 and ten minutes.
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