diesel exhaust fluid

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Today I passed an auto parts store advertising "diesel exhaust fluid". Does anyone know what that is?
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It is liquid urea. All 2010 and newer diesel engines in the U.S. must produce near zero emissions. To do this there are currently two methods. One method requires a wicked expensive filter, which, if it goes bad will cost the vehicle owner in the neighborhood of 3 thousand dollars, plus it jacks up the initial cost of the vehicle. The other method uses a separate tank of liquid urea, DEF, and injects it into the exhaust pipe causing a chemical reaction with the exhaust gases effectively neutralizing them. Currently it's really expensive, but ultimately It'll probably cost around $3 per gallon. On an average sized vehicle a five or six gallon tank should last for around 16000 miles.
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RBM wrote:

Slight correction, 2007+ diesels have diesel particulate filters (DPF), 2010+ diesels have the UREA injection and selective catalyst reduction *in addition* to the DPF. The UREA injection and SCR is supposed to also help reduce the particulate generation so the DPF doesn't fill up and require regeneration as often, but the DPF is still there. The DPFs are also more like $1200 or so, not $3k, and the UREA is under $3/gal already.
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WOW! Anything to prevent wholesale adoption of a clean fuel alternative.
BTW, what ever happened to BMWs promise to have a hydrogen powered car on showroom floors in 2 yrs .....3 years ago!?
nb
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wrote:

If we had a practical "clean fuel alternative" we'd all be buying them
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Hydrogen was proved viable 30 yrs ago. You get three guesses why it's not available. The first 2 don't count.
nb
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wrote:

When there's a practical vehicle that uses "clean fuel alternatives" we'll all be buying them
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Hydrogen makes a fine fuel but where will it come from? Except for a very miniscule naturally occurring amount, the only way to produce it is by using some other energy source or from a "cracking" process during oil refining.
--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org
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On Nov 12, 11:22pm, snipped-for-privacy@sdf.lNoOnSePsAtMar.org (Larry W) wrote:

Guys like notbob like to point to the ocean and say "It's full of hydrogen!" Which of course ignores that fact that it's inconveniently bonded to oxygen and we know from basic chemistry that it takes as much energy to seperate that bond as you get out of it when it later is recombined again. In other words, hydrogen is more of an energy transport mechanism than a fuel. The easiest and most cost effective solution to generate the hydrogen would be to use nuclear power, but somehow I doubt notbob would call that clean. It's kind of like the folks that keep saying electric cars are zero emission, as if electricity you could ever want just comes out of the wall outlet. I believe in the case of hydrogen, there is also the issue of how to safely store enough of it in a car.
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On 11/13/2010 7:17 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Exactly, I follow this stuff pretty closely and as you noted there are non trivial issues concerning use of hydrogen to fuel a car.
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<stuff snipped>

Does that mean I should cancel my deposit on the new Chrysler Von Hindenburg? (-:
-- Bobby G.
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On 11/12/2010 9:28 PM, notbob wrote:

Perhaps there is no infrastructure for the distribution of hydrogen fuel for vehicles? 8-)
TDD
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On 11/13/2010 2:19 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Likely because there is no efficient way to produce it. A distribution system would be the easy part.
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George wrote:

Neither is easy.
Hydrogen can be produced "greenly" and efficiently only from a "green" energy source that is very abundant to overcome the inefficiency of the production process. Practically this means that nuclear and hydroelectric (tidal and conventional) are the only "green" sources with enough energy density to be viable.
Distribution is the next difficult part, you can ship hydrogen in gaseous state through pipelines ok, and in cryogenic liquid form in tankers ok, so getting it to fueling stations isn't too difficult.
Getting the hydrogen into motor vehicles that will use it is the problem since it has to be filled either at very high pressure (6,000 PSI+) to store a useable amount which really requires qualified fill station personnel and requires a slow fill rate for safety, or has to be filled and stored as a cryogenic liquid which also requires qualified fill station personnel and has the additional problem of the vehicle having to vent off hydrogen whether it's running or not, something common to all cryogenic gasses.
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If there were such an energy source, it would be used for all of our other energy needs long before it was used to split water. IOW, it's just a wet dream. Wake up.
Tidal and "energy density" in the same sentence? You are dreaming. As for conventional hydroelectric, forget it. Not nearly enough water falling and the tree huggers will string you from their favorite perch; more dreams.

High pressure isn't an insolvable problem. Cracking water "cleanly" is, for many reasons.
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" snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote:

There most certainly is such an energy source, several in fact. As for splitting water, it's a good battery since once you have it separated if you store it properly it does not loose "charge" sitting there like chemical batteries. It does have "charging losses" like chemical batteries in the form of the heat of compression (or refrigeration), but doesn't have losses on the use end.

Nope, you're the one dreaming if you don't think there is high energy density available for harnessing in the tides. It's been sadly overlooked for some time but in the last decade or so it's picked up a lot. It's certainly far more practical than the intermittent and very low energy density solar and wind power.

The tree huggers need to be strung up and get a basic science education to replace their mindless emotional whining. There is plenty of conventional hydroelectric potential left untapped, and combined with tidal and nuclear we could readily have 100% green energy within a decade or two if we would wake up, remove the mindless obstructionists and git 'er done.

It's certainly not unsolvable, however there has been little action in the direction needed to solve it.
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I notice that you name none.

Loose charges don't stay around long.
Hydrogen is a *terrible* battery. Its "charging losses" make conventional batteries look stellar.

There isn't. The *DENSITY* is very poor.

In some environments I suppose even a turd would smell good.

You should take some of your own advice.

Nonsense. Physics, my child.
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" snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote:

I notice you're a misquoting jack ass with no knowledge just trying to create arguments. *plonk*
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If you don't want to make a fool of yourself, don't post.
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On 11/13/2010 9:49 AM, Pete C. wrote:

Sure, but if we could easily, and inexpensively produce hydrogen the distribution part could be addressed since there would be a strong financial incentive to do so.

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