Debug advice Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801 stopped refrigerating

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On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 20:32:09 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I author threads and read and respond to *every* post in the threads I author. I don't, as a rule, read the newsgroup, and never have.
I've been on this newsgroup for years, and I have been doing that for years.
So I never looked *outside* the thread I authored (why would a question be to me about the thread I authored but outside the thread I authored?).
Anyway, the machine is not in warranty and the first post of the thread I authored showed that since it's a 5 year warranty at Sears and the machine is 6 years old.
The warranty doesn't matter.
What matters is that the compressor doesn't start, and only started two or three times when I put the hard-start capacitor on it.
I don't know what to make of that data point.
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"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
On 7/8/2016 7:47 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Since you missed the question the first time.
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On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 20:23:36 +0100, Gareth Magennis wrote:

Here are all the posts from you in the relevant thread. I know of no questions you asked in that relevant thread that I didn't answer. And I know of no suggestions from you in that relevant thread that I haven't already tried.
What I know is not there is an explanation of why the compressor might start with the hard-start cap 2 out of 20 times.
It pulls 3 amps when it runs; 13.5 amps when it's locked. The LRA is 17.6 amps.
What do you make of that?
-------------------------------- =====================================================================On 7/8/2016 7:22 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Sounds just exactly like a bad start relay on the compressor. This is considered "sealed system". If you have the owners manual, see how long is the sealed system warranty. Probably five years, so you're out of warranty.
If it's out of warranty, are you any good with electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll continue the discussion. =====================================================================On 7/8/2016 8:31 PM, tom wrote:

You are so, so right. The compressor will eventually over heat and might burn out.
Thank you, well said. =====================================================================On 7/8/2016 8:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:

CY: The big black thing in the back is a compressor.

CY: No, the motor and compressor are inside. The start relay (and some have a relay and a capacitor) outside the sealed unit. The relay and cap should never contact refrigerant. That said, the company probably considers the relay and cap to be part of the sealed system.

CY: Yes. Though, it's often not cost effective. Requires refrigerant pump, brazing, electrical, and more than that. Takes about three hours.

CY: The black sealed unit contains electric windings for the motor. The unit keeps trying to start the compressor. Amp draw, turns the electric watts into heat.

CY: Yes, that combination amp and temp safety switch is what gives you the repeated hum click.

CY: The compressor has two windings. Start, and run. The relay supplies power to the start winding, and then later power to the run winding.

It's late on the east coast, I'm going to bed. =====================================================================On 7/8/2016 8:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:

As a Kenmore, you may be able to buy OEM parts, but if it were my unit, I'd use a universal hard start kit. Seeing as how I carry them in my vehicle and use the universal kits at work. =====================================================================On 7/8/2016 9:26 PM, Danny D. wrote:

To keep these parts from coming off.
Pull straight out from compressor. Might need to pry with slotted screw driver. Wiggle them back and forth while pulling. =====================================================================On 7/8/2016 10:40 PM, Danny D. wrote:

No. Sorry, but that takes a lot of skills that the average HO does not have. =====================================================================On 7/9/2016 1:27 AM, Danny D. wrote:

d) the suggestion Stormy gave yesterday.
I've never tested a relay. Just replace, and see if the unit comes back to life.
You may also answer my question, if you wish. The one I asked yesterday. =====================================================================On 7/9/2016 12:29 PM, Danny D. wrote:

=====================================================================On 7/9/2016 12:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:

CY: Not since 1890. =====================================================================On 7/9/2016 12:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Yes. I can. Totally what I diagnosed yesterday. =====================================================================On 7/9/2016 6:50 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Danny, are my posts making it through your server? =====================================================================On 7/9/2016 6:48 PM, Danny D. wrote:

through your server? You've not answered my question. And you're going through a lot of bother which isn't really needed.
But, did you ever do any thing simple?
I leave you to your complications. =====================================================================On 7/9/2016 6:48 PM, Danny D. wrote:

You've not answered my question. And you're going through a lot of bother which isn't really needed. But, did you ever do any thing simple? I leave you to your complications. =====================================================================On 7/12/2016 3:22 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Pump out all the refrigerant. Saw the top off the compressor. After the inspection, weld the compressor using a gas tight "bead" of weld. Replace the refrigerant.
No problem for you, right? =====================================================================On 7/12/2016 5:26 PM, tom wrote:

Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago, and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored my hints and reminders.
=====================================================================On 7/12/2016 7:08 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Think I remember at least one reminder. Well, moot point. He's gone so far afield on so many directions, there's no contacting him, now. =====================================================================On 7/12/2016 10:57 PM, Danny D. wrote:

You never answered my question, and I never made any suggestions what to do. Other than suggesting you answer my question so we can move on. =====================================================================On 7/12/2016 10:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:

"not found" is what the web page says. =====================================================================On 7/12/2016 10:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:

I added a g to the end of the URL, and got a picture. I can't comment on that, until you answer my question. =====================================================================On 7/12/2016 11:21 PM, Danny D. wrote:

spend a bit of time on the computer in the evenings.
What question? I only asked twice. =====================================================================On 7/13/2016 12:56 AM, Danny D. wrote:

If you'd done what I said, and played along, this could have been fixed last week. Hope you are enjoying your self.
=====================================================================On 7/13/2016 1:09 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Yes, it's obvious that you don't see. =====================================================================On 7/13/2016 10:00 PM, Danny D. wrote:

When you run into a problem, you can either do things differently, or force harder, using the technique which has failed up to that point.
I offered you (repeatedly) a chance to do differently, and you ignored me repeatedly. This post is an example of trying to force your failing techniques even harder, and trying to force me to participate with your failings. I'll have you know, that I viewed NONE of the links, and barely read your text.
By way of references, I've been working on domstic refrigerators for over 10 years. I'm fairly sure that if you'd done what I said, it would have been fixed several days ago. I'm also fairly sure I know why your compressor keeps going off. =====================================================================On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Nope. And, I asked twice. =====================================================================On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:

It's under this header, and also under subject line of "Debug advice, and a question for Danny D". =====================================================================On 7/13/2016 2:02 AM, Danny D. wrote:

When you go back and answer my question, I'll consider answer yours. ==========================================================================================================================================
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On 7/14/2016 9:22 PM, Danny D. wrote:

this lengthy overkill. You really run on and on, you're lucky I read that much. I saw my (yet unanswered) question three times in the first third or so of this. It's a simple question, and I'm looking for a simple answer, not a lengthy rambling on and on.
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On Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 9:22:43 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:

That you have 3 choices:
A - Pay $150 for a tech to come out and tell you that the compressor is screwed and it's going to cost $500+ to fix.
B - Buy a new fridge
C - Continue to play Stormin's silly game and let your food spoil.
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On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 12:44:01 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

As you know, I only come to alt.home.repair when I have a problem, and when I author a thread, I read *everything* in the thread, supplying photos and model numbers and references, etc.,
I never read any other threads. I just don't.
You know that too, because I've never responded to a thread outside my threads. (Well, sometimes I get Oren asking me to answer a post about garage door springs...).
Anyway, since you asked this *outside* of the thread I authored, I didn't see it until just now because I don't read this newsgroup. I only respond *inside* the threads I author.
The machine is, as noted in the OP of that other thread, not under warranty because Sears has a 1 year and 5 year warranty but the machine was bought in 2010 (as noted in that OP) so the warranty expired last year.
As you know also from that OP, I have never even looked at a refrigerator; however, as you may know from this forum, I've repaired my washing machine (replacing the motor control board) and many times I've repaired my pool pumps, and I've replaced my own garage door springs, etc., so, I'm as good as anyone with electrical repairs.
I have a VOM and a DMM and I built test jigs and I took college physics and chemistry and tons of other classes and I built my own class A amplifiers when I was fifteen (Silicon Germanium) so I know all about capacitors resistors diodes transistors, etc.. I've wired my own computers, and I've written assembly language programs, and I've debugged basic appliances.
Having said that, I've never worked on a refrigerator before.
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On 7/14/2016 9:18 PM, Danny D. wrote:

After you ignored my question (with same subject line), I changed the subject line to make it more obvious.
No, I don't follow your posting pattern. I'd not even notice if you commented on other subjects.
A simple answer to my question would be nice.
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On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 12:44:01 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

To update this thread, I replaced the Kenmore with a Whirlpool long ago.
http://i.cubeupload.com/3yXHsM.jpg
When I opened the back of the Whirlpool, I was surprised to find a Kenmore build sheet inside. Everything is almost exactly the same in the Whirlpool as it was in the Kenmore, even down to the capacitor and relay.
Even the shelves and wire racks were the same.
So Whirlpool *is* Kenmore and Kenmore is Whirlpool.
The current in the Whirlpool was lower than the Kenmore though, at about 1.2 amps when the compressor was running (it was about 3 amps, as I recall, with the older fridge).
http://i.cubeupload.com/Wgo5LG.jpg
The new Whirlpool uses what appears to be a similar Embraco compressor which uses R134a but with a much lower LRA of 11.7 amps (as opposed to the 17 point something locked rotor amperage of the older Kenmore fridge).
http://i.cubeupload.com/vn8fws.jpg
I've already had a service call, because the Whirlpool fridge is *supposed* to keep to between 37 and 40 degrees F with the freezer between 10 and 0 degrees F, but the thing is about 5 to 10 degrees F too warm when both settings are in the minimum position.
http://i.cubeupload.com/3UkX69.jpg
Funny thing, when you put the *freezer* at the minimum setting, the *fridge* gets more air through the vent at top left (in this side-by-side refrigerator/freezer combination). That's because lowering the temperature in the freezer simply makes the vent open more of the fan air to the refrigerator.
http://i.cubeupload.com/3yXHsM.jpg
It's confusing, and it's counterintuitive that when you set the freezer to colder, the refrigerator gets *less* air, hence it's warmer. I don't know what changes when you set the refrigerator colder though.
This is all I think I know: 1. The compressor only runs at one speed. 2. Therefore the compressor is either on, or it's off. 3. There is a condenser fan on the bottom of the refrigerator. 4. That condenser fan also only has one speed. 5. There is a fan in the back of the freezer about mid way up. 6. That fan also has only one speed. 7. There is no fan in the refrigerator. 8. The refrigerator has no coils and has no fans. 9. The evaporator coils are only in the back of the freezer. 10. So the freezer is what cools the refrigerator. 11. That's why lowering the freezer temperature raises the refrig temperature (according to the service guy anyway). 12. The freezer dial apparently only controls the louvers of the air that is blow by the freezer fan from the freezer to the refrigerator. 13. I have no idea what the refrigerator dial does.
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Oh, for Kee-rist sake(!!) ... here is the question, in S-T's 2nd post. Hint: it precedes the "?" punctuation:
On 7/8/2016 7:47 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Your quoting every single post of his is pointless ... nobody reads all that!
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On 7/14/2016 9:37 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

I read about the top 1/4 to 1/3 of that text. I saw my very simple question three times. Which he's not answered with a very simple answer.
Your powers of observation are excellent. In more than one regard.
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On 7/8/2016 7:22 PM, Danny D. wrote:

As Terry/Snag said, it's very likely that the start cap is bad & the click you hear is the overload protector opening. (It will cycle back on after it has cooled.)
In that picture, the capacitor is the black module under the connector. Sears parts calls it a "run cap", but even so it is very likely the bad part. You should hope that it is because it's cheap & other possible bad parts are not.
http://www.searspartsdirect.com/model-part/10659422801/0582/0165000/k0902005/00009.html
Bob
BTW - you should unplug the fridge.
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Also - the 10 or 20 seconds of humming that you hear is the motor TRYING to start. It can't without the cap & that that why the "bulb" is hot.
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On Fri, 08 Jul 2016 20:42:33 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Thank you for that advice. The start cap does not look damaged from the outside, but it may be damaged from the inside.
I'm not sure how to debug if it's the start cap or if it's the "overload and start relay" though.

Thank you for that diagram Bob.
Since understanding what it is that I'm looking at helps to begin debugging, I took the liberty of annotating all the parts on it.
How does this look?
http://i.cubeupload.com/5z2J05.gif
Are these the primary suggested parts to consider debugging? - #16=Refrigerator overload and start relay Part #: W10189190 Substitution: WPW10189190 $45.17 - #17=Refrigerator run capacitor Part #: 2264017 Substitution: WPW10662129 $10.39 - #28=Refrigerator compressor assembly Part #: W10183575 Substitution: W10233961 $358.40
Is it even possible for a homeowner to replace the compressor #28?
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On 7/8/2016 10:40 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Caps go bad without looking damaged (except electrolytics will bulge).

How did you do that?

Those are them. The cap is the easiest, cheapest, and most likely to be bad. "Easy" in the sense of removing & replacing. Testing for bad is not real easy, but doable.
The overload/relay is probably just plugged onto 2 prongs sticking out of the compressor can. Debugging it might be a challenge.
Replacing the compressor is definitely not a homeowner job.

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On Fri, 08 Jul 2016 22:54:05 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

I just saved the diagram you pointed me to, which also had the parts name and prices, and I annotated the diagram with the parts name and price using a freeware editor (Paint.NET on Windows).

You guys gave me the confidence on the cap to use more force, and when I did, the cap came right off (thanks!):
http://i.cubeupload.com/uHWsBd.jpg
The relay is still stuck on the compressor.
http://i.cubeupload.com/EnZxki.jpg
The cap looks good and doesn't smell burnt, but, for $10, it's not worth testing the cap:
http://i.cubeupload.com/PiHwXk.jpg
Besides, there's ten times that in food waiting to be spoiled!
http://i.cubeupload.com/36h0Z0.jpg
Note to Oren: Those aren't huckleberries; 'dems elderberries!

So are these my basic choices? a) capacitor, or b) relay, or c) new frig?
Any idea how to test the relay?
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Some Digital Multimeters can measure capacitance. Can you find one that will? Ebay maybe? Measure the capacitor - it should be close to 12 uF.
You should clean out all the dust on the black condenser coils shown in the one picture.
You might pop the tabs on the relay (give it a good pull or pry with a screwdriver) and inspect the contact points inside. Also check that the coil is not open (with the DMM).
Or just take a chance and get new parts. A new refer will be costly.
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On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 02:49:54 -0400, tom wrote:

Here is an annotated picture of some quick test results:
http://i.cubeupload.com/PmCLK7.jpg
After cooling down the motor overnight, plugging it in, we can hear the solenoid click on and the motor hum until it clicks off. (I'm trying to find a way to upload that video for you but it's 13MB).
I checked resistance of all that I could with the following results: 1. Compressor contacts: Any two of all three pegged the ohmmeter needle to the zero ohms end. Assumption: The two wire coils inside are good.
2. Overload & Start Relay contacts: Any two of all three pegged the ohmmeter needle to the infinite end. Assumption: I'm not sure what to make of that because it's clearly getting power to the motor in some way and then shutting off in some way.
3. Run Capacitor: I don't have a farad tester, so, I just checked to see if the contacts were shorted but they are open to a Radio Shack needle ohm meter (AAA battery).
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On 7/9/2016 12:36 PM, Danny D. wrote: ...

Agree

There should not be any connections between these contacts. They will have connections to the input power contacts and the cap contacts. Involving the relay. Without know the internal circuitry, you can't diagnose it.

You know it's not shorted (unlikely from the start). To check for not open: - put the meter on the highest ohm setting - momentarily short the cap contacts - touch the cap contacts with the meter leads - the needle should swing to a high reading as the cap charging current flows & then fall to zero as the cap becomes fully charged
Bob
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On Saturday, July 9, 2016 at 12:51:31 PM UTC-4, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Disagree.
Insulation beaks down, windings short together and you get zero ohms. Good windings will not produce zero ohms, the resistance is low, typically a few ohms. He could be reading zero on the meter though, depending on what scale it's on. But the main point is zero ohms, if it's really zero, is an indication that the motor is shot, not that it's OK.
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On 7/9/2016 1:27 AM, Danny D. wrote:

d) the suggestion Stormy gave yesterday.
I've never tested a relay. Just replace, and see if the unit comes back to life.
You may also answer my question, if you wish. The one I asked yesterday.
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