Deaf mute father shot dead by police while trying to communicate with them

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On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 11:50:11 AM UTC-4, Muggles wrote:

The problem here is you expect that in a country with a million cops, because they are trained, they all have to act perfectly, can't make a mistake where they have to make a judgment call in a fraction of a second. And at the same time you refuse to acknowledge that in almost every one of these cases where someone winds up dead, the perp is the one that created the toxic, volatile, chaotic environment. You sound just like those Black Lies Matter idiots, unarmed guy is dead, it's automatically the cops fault, facts don't matter.

Wooooosh! Again we're talking about apples here, you're off onto oranges. That volatile, toxic, chaotic scene was created by the deaf guy. He lead police on a 7 mile journey instead of pulling over for speeding.

They don't. So far I haven't seen one case where they've said that and gotten away with it. And the cop here, we don't even know his side of the story yet, no video camera evidence has been shown, no witness testimony, yet here you are with the case all wrapped up. Just like BLM. What kind of conservative does that?

If the civilian can show it's self defense, then they should not be charged. You have some examples of that, you'd like to share?

Examples please. This might happen once in a blue moon, with 1 mil cops, but it's not "quite often". It's clearly not the case here. It's not the case with Michael Brown, the 12 year old in Cleveland, Freddy Gray, Eric Garner, the guy last week in Louisiana.

Were you there? Again, you're just like the BLM idiots. We don't know what the cop saw, what the cop thought he saw. Suppose the guy had something in his hand that looked like a weapon? Suppose he turned around reached into his waistband, then turned around quickly, with his arms moving wildly? Why do you make up conclusions when we barely have any of the facts? The Michael Brown shooting, it was initially that a white cop had gone after an innocent black child for no reason who was just walking home and shot him when he had his hands up. In your screwy world, that's "the cop executed him for walking in the street"! The cop MURDERED him! Fortunately an investigation found out that something very different really happened. But you and the BLM type refuse to change your ways. In their case, it's because they have an anti-cop, racist agenda. What's your excuse?

It's not up to me to show you anything. Is that how it works now in your little screwy world? Guilty until proven innocent? That a new conservative principle? YOU are making the accusations, it's up to you to prove them. All I've said is that the perp initially created the toxic, volatile situation, and we have absolute proof of that, he lead them on a 7 mile chase, instead of pulling over.

They usually do, whether the cops did something wrong or not.

And the cop may very well wind up charged, they are just beginning the investigation, WTF is your hurry?

I doubt anyone following this and similar threads believes it.

Apparently the cop's life doesn't matter, because you're in a rush to judgment, no need to wait for the facts. How did that work out for the cops falsely accused, eg the one in the Michael Brown case? The cop's career is over, he's been put through hell, can't work as a cop, suffered financially, emotionally, because people like you couldn't wait for the facts, couldn't wait for justice. In the old days, you'd be the shrill witch in the middle of a lynch mob.
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On 8/28/2016 11:57 AM, trader_4 wrote:

I expect people who are highly trained to be professionals to practice their training, and when they don't behave like professionals they should face consequences, especially, if they KILL someone as a result of not following training, procedure, and protocol.
LE isn't highly trained so they can excuse their fopahs (Ooops! I accidentally KILLED someone!) - they are highly trained so they will KNOW how to respond to a multitude of scenarios.
If they weren't trained in "deescalation and communication" techniques with the public they might have an excuse, but the problem is that they ARE HIGHLY trained.

WRONG! The cops bear the responsibility in this scenario for creating the toxic, volatile, and chaotic environment. THEY are the ones who are TRAINED in deescalation and communication techniques. Had they engaged that training, the deaf man would still be alive. [...]

The cop didn't lose his life.

Fact: The deaf man was speeding and the cops wanted to stop him.
Fact: The man didn't stop immediately, and drove to his home and stopped when he got to his home.
Fact: The cops drew weapons on the deaf man, while the deaf man was trying to use sign language to communicate with the cops.
Fact: The cops shot and killed a deaf mute while the deaf mute was trying to communicate with them.
WHY didn't the cops attempt to subdue and cuff the man? WHY is the speeder now dead? WHY didn't they recognize sign language? WHY didn't they try to seek a different outcome?
I'm tired of hearing stories where cops just kill people and then excusing their lethal response as "OOOPS!"
--
Maggie

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On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 1:23:10 PM UTC-4, Muggles wrote:

And what is the evidence in this case that you're bitching about, that the cop is not going to face consequences? They haven't even had an investigation yet. WTF is wrong with you?

And in your experience in the real world of "training", given that there are 1 mil cops, 320 mil people in this country, what number of mistakes do you expect? zero obviously. Anything above that, it's that we have some widespread problem with cops.

Sigh. The perp lead them on a 7 mile chase instead of pulling over. That was the start of the toxic environment. Now it goes from a speeding ticket to potentially a felony eluding charge. The cops andrenaline goes up, they are on heightened alert, because they figure he's running for a reason and they don't know what it is. Had he pulled over, stayed in his car, he'd be alive today. As would that long list of others I gave you, Michael Brown, the kid in Cleveland, Eric Garner, the dope in Louisiana that resisted arrest, the black teen that stole a car and eluded police. Again, all those people created the toxic environment. It's like throwing gasoline all around an old building, loading it full of unknown hazards and calling in the cops. If something goes wrong, the building blows up, according to your deluded logic, it's all the fault of the cops and the one that created that toxic scenario bears no responsibility.

You don't have to lose your life to suffer and have your life ruined by those that rush to judgment.

Fact, that's a criminal charge. It's gone now from a ticket, to a more serious charge, possibly a felony.

Fact: You must not even watch any of the COP reality shows on TV, because it's standard practice to have guns drawn once a person has eluded arrest, fleeing with their car, because the cops know the perp is already not behaving normally and don't know what's coming next. I suppose you'd just walk right on over to the door as if it was just a routine speeding stop? Good grief!

Why are you asking us? Everyone else here has told you that we don't know what happened at that point. Which is why we are reserving judgment. YOU are the one making the claims, so you should know.

Because he was a dumb ass and didn't pull over, he created a toxic volatile environment. When do people more typically wind up dead? When they pull over for police and accept a speeding ticket or when the lead police on a chase or create a similar toxic, volatile environment? How did that all work out for all those on my list?

How do you know they didn't? How do we even know the guy was using sign language? You could be signing, or speaking and still be making actions that lead a cop to believe you've got a gun. Again, we don't know, but you're rushing to judgment.

They did, initially all they wanted to do was give him a speeding ticket and send him on his way.

When did this cop or anyone in law enforcement in this case say OOOPS. Link please. IDK of a single cop who has said ooops in any of these cases.
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On 8/28/2016 1:12 PM, trader_4 wrote:

Killing by cop isn't one of those "mistakes" that we just chalk it up to being human in the line of duty.
You should give up ... you'll not win this discussion.
--
Maggie

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On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 3:26:08 PM UTC-4, Muggles wrote:

Of course neither I nor anyone else said that here. I note you didn't answer the question about how many mistakes you think can be reasonably expected when you have 1 mil cops in a country of 320 mil.
Second question. Are mistakes more likely to happen in a calm, environment, like a normal traffic stop for speeding? Or in a chaotic, toxic environment, like the end to a 7 mile police chase for eluding?
Third question. Who created that toxic environment?

The discussion has actually already been won. Everyone here is on pretty much the same page except you and you won't even address the essential points, you're reduced to your usual nonsense, eg "he was executed for speeding"!
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On 29/08/2016 14:05, trader_4 wrote:

ok, what crime *did* he get shot for>#?
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Bod expressed precisely :

He was "stopped" for speeding.
He was probably shot accidentally because he didn't comply with normal conduct when being stopped by the police. If he got out of the vehicle because he still didn't know the police were stopping him, the only sign language he needed to exhibit when he did finally noticed them was to raise his hands up in the international sign language of surrender.
It remains to be seen whether the police were justified in their reaction to his exiting the vehicle and whatever happened next.
If you want to jump to conclusions, maybe you should start a DLM group and go riot somewhere.
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On 29/08/2016 16:06, FromTheRafters wrote:

> I don't understand why a driver who gets pulled over by police for speeding should have to put his/her arms up in surrender, even if the speeder didn't stop immediately. That sounds so ridiculous to me.
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On Monday, August 29, 2016 at 11:52:17 AM UTC-4, Bod wrote:

You don't have to. This guy didn't. You also don't have to get out of the car and it's not a good idea to do so until the police tell you what to do. This guy got out. It may sound ridiculous to you, but it sounds like common sense to most of us. By leading the police on a chase, he had committed the crime of eluding, which can be a felony, depending on the state laws and the circumstances. Many states have tough laws, because they are fed up with people fleeing and killing others in auto accidents in the resulting chase.
Once you flee like that, the cops are on heightened alert, because they don't know why you're fleeing, what other law you're going to break. You've already demonstrated that you're resisting them. So, getting out of the car, moving towards them, reaching into your waistband, reaching into your jacket are all very bad ideas. Many times these chases end with the perps in the car, the police then giving them instructions, one step at a time, how to exit the vehicle and lay down in the street for everyone's safety. I know when I'm pulled over, I don't go reaching under the seat, opening the glove compartment, or doing anything like that, where the cop could think I'm going for a gun. I'm alive, so I guess it works.
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On 29/08/2016 18:32, trader_4 wrote:

So the difference between the UK policing and the USA is the proliferation of US *gun*s. Agree?
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They have about 50 years to go to catch up with us. They're still living in the wild west. In fact they're almost as backward as the Muslims.
--
Pub sign: Liquor in the front, poker in the rear.

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On 29/08/2016 21:22, James Wilkinson wrote:

Whoa!! steady on. You've crossed the line there with your insults to our friends across the pond!! You speak for yourself.
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I speak for the majority of the entire world. The only thing the Americans can beat anyone in is ego.
--
I learnt so much from my mistakes I think I'll make another.

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Bod used his keyboard to write :

I didn't say he did, he is supposed to stay in the vehicle. Having failed at that simple task, and finding himself confronted by cops, it is best to assume a non-threatening stance. Holding ones hands up is a good and well understood way of looking non-threatening. Flailing ones arms around is not. Is *that* any easier for you to understand?
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On 29/08/2016 18:42, FromTheRafters wrote:

> Oh I understand what you are saying, it's just that it is alien to most Brits. When we get stopped, it is a much more relaxed affair. We don't get guns pointing at us for just getting out of our cars. We know that the police won't have guns and the police are pretty sure that a driver won't have any. It's a sort of mutual trust I suppose. Yes you get the odd rogue, but that happens in every country.
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On Monday, August 29, 2016 at 11:06:17 AM UTC-4, FromTheRafters wrote:

By the time he was "stopped", he was also being stopped for eluding, which can be a felony. They tried to pull him over for speeding.

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trader_4 used his keyboard to write :

I believe you, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that that was indeed the case. It sure sounds reasonable though. IIRC you are allowed some leeway in finding a place to pull over safely, and it usually doesn't take 7 miles to do so. I'm not prepared to believe that the flashing lights which were likely to be displayed were not noticed by the victim. Rear view mirrors are supposed to be used as a part of normal driving procedures. In fact, there is a guidline for looking at them every so many seconds IIRC.
[...]
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On 8/29/2016 8:05 AM, trader_4 wrote:

You've attempted to muddy the water by suggesting this incident should be considered less of an issue if it's considered amongst overall "cop mistake" statistics for the entire country. You're essentially saying it should be added to the overall "OOOPS" statistics.
IOW, you want to show that, for example, "cops killing deaf people is only 1 in 100,000 cop mistakes", or some other similar stat you can come up with. That stat would sure appear to support your side of the argument that "cops are human" and they "make mistakes", wouldn't it?
OTOH, I'd like you to justify why highly trained LE can't recognize sign language, and why a highly trained officer would even choose to shoot an unarmed man waving his hands and arms when that officer's training taught him many other choices that preclude lethal force?
I repeat:

--
Maggie

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On Monday, August 29, 2016 at 10:51:32 AM UTC-4, Muggles wrote:

I'm not saying it should be treated as more of an issue or less of issue. I never said any such thing. You claimed that there is some big problem with police shooting people. You demanded that they have to be perfect robots, where apparently no mistakes can ever happen. I only asked how many mistakes would a reasonable person expect in a country with 1 mil cops, 320 mil people? Do the math. How many times a day does an average cop come into contact with the public? How many traffic stops, etc. Sounds like there could be a billion interactions a year, yet I've only seen a few a year where the cop was wrong in shooting someone.

Are you actually now arguing that cops are not human and like anyone else can make mistakes? Mistakes that happen in a split section, where they think they are facing a deadly threat?

I gave you some examples of what could have happened. The cop could have thought he saw a gun in his waistband, thought that he was reaching for it. The cop had a second to react to that. Now tell us how long the perp had to stop committing the crime of eluding and to pull over? That went on for 7 miles and THAT is what created the toxic situation that the cops and the perp wound up in. Clearly the perp deserves some of the responsibility for what happened.
But not according to you. You think people can flip off a cop, curse at him, refuse to cooperate and accept a ticket, if they think they are right. Then they resist arrest like in TX because according to you the cops have no right to investigate a jaywalking incident. Or the perp can lead police on a 7 mile chase like this guy and whatever happens in that new toxic environment, it's all the fault of the cops.
I've asked you before, how well did that strategy work out for Michael Brown, Eric Garner, the dope in Louisiana, and this deaf guy?
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On 8/28/2016 11:50 AM, Muggles wrote:

You are asking for facts but yet draw conclusions having none yourself. The cop may or may not have been 100% wrong but please have the courtesy and common sense you claim to have and see what the ivestigation reveals.
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