damage from ethanol?

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the "revenuers" would be after them. (ALCOHOL,tobacco and firearms;BATF-troop)
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Jim Yanik
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On Wed, 10 May 2006 22:06:57 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

I'm pretty sure that the BATF requires you to poison (err... "de-nature") any alcohol that's not intended and stamped for human consumption, but you shouldn't then be subject to the 26 USC 5001 taxes on spirits, which IIRC, is about $13.50/gallon.
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HarryS writes:

Bunk.
Photosynthesis is inherently weak and wasteful.
Ethanol is a technically inferior fuel.
The justification is more or less, "we may lose money on every gallon, but we'll make it up on volume".
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And if we'd drill in ANWR and the Gulf for oil,and process oil-shale,it would not be $50 a bbl. OPEC would have to lower their price because of supply and demand changes,and we would not be paying adversaries(hostiles) large sums of money.
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Jim Yanik
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Yes, ANWR. Can't believe it to soooo long for THIS to come up. Yeah, and if pigs had wings they could fly.
S
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And yet it produced a heck of a lot of oil.
Mike
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Over millions of years.
drops of water individually are "weak",but over time,they can erode rock;think Grand Canyon,beaches....
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Jim Yanik
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When compared to gasoline, you won't get an argument that ethanol can't give you the energy output that gasoline can. But, it does have sufficient energy output to drive a vehicle and, when added in amounts around 10%, ethanol has beneficial environmental effects and the mix is not as energy inefficient as pure ethanol because of the improved burning of the gasoline portion of the mix.
Nature, left to it's own devices, came up with a fantastic process to capture energy from the sunlight. We've been deriving benefits from that process for years as we pump crude oil from the ground, crude oil that the photosynthetic process enabled natural earth processes to store away. Eventually, that storehouse will be depleted. Can we replace it with some renewable fuel source? We'd better be able to. Will it be fuel ethanol derived from grain? Definitely not completely. Could it be fuel ethanol derived from cellulosic materials? Yes, if that process is sufficiently perfected. More likely, it will be replaced by a mix of technologies.
There's a lot of concern that the use of corn for manufacturing fuel ethanol primarily benefits the corn producer. I think that the folks who voice this concern miss that fact that every form of energy that we use benefits some more that others, i.e., OPEC, the crude producers, drilling equipment manufacturers and the people who drill wells, oil companies, coal producers, natural gas suppliers, electricity producers, and on and on.
You can bet that the fuel ethanol plants currently operating aren't losing money. Those on the drawing boards, and there are a considerable number planned, will never be built if it looks like they'll lose money.
Again, let the marketplace decide if it's weak and wasteful. The marketplace in this country is very efficient at ferreting out inefficient processes.
Harry
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It is a valid alternative to gasoline. We can grow it, so it won't ever run out. It can be produced here start to finish, so we don't have to depend on the whims of unstable countries that don't like us. Really, gasoline doesn't come from the ground either. Did you know that Iran actually IMPORTS gasoline? Gasoline also has to be made from raw material (crude oil.)
The politics are really more about what crop gets to be turned into ethanol. Sugar cane is a better source than corn, etc.
S
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mrsgator88 wrote:

The real question with ethanol is whether it's cost effective. I agree with Rich, all I ever hear on the news is more political rant, rather than true facts. For example, 60 mins did a story about a town in Iowa that built a corn to ethanol plant. They went on about how successful it was, the farmers are getting more money, etc. What I'd like to see is the total economics picture of what it costs, start to finish, including govt subsidies, taxes, etc. Then you could do a reasonable comparison. As I recall, the only study that I saw that appeared to be relatively complete showed that ethanol came in at $3-4 a gallon.
Then, there are other issues. Some of the same people who herald ethanol as a miracle fuel, also run around complaining about environmental issues. Well, growing lots more corn takes lots more land, fertilizer that produces run off, etc. So it;s not free from it's own issues either.
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barrow ( clean) spreading around the pool with shovel might of been a better idea, to bad I didn't think of that.
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On 10 May 2006 04:15:39 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

I wouldn't trust anything 60 Minutes said unless I also heard it from a reliable source. It's a trash show afaic and it frightens me that so many people who could make money elsewhere are willing to work for it. Details omitted unless someone asks.

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mm wrote:

Folks over 50 place a GREAT deal of trust in most things that are shown on 60 Minutes as they have shown themselves to be EXTREMELY reliable in what they say over the decades that they have been on TV. No, they are not infallible, and they do have bias that shows from time to time in their reporting. However, among news folk, they represent very nearly the BEST available.
That said, Politicians and News People share many common characteristics. They BOTH love making mountains out of molehills and they will both do almost anything to gain public attention.
This previous statement is as bad as the Illegal Immigrant discussion, we paint all illegal immigrants with the same paint brush, we paint all politicians with the same paint brush and we paint TV news people all with the same brush.
No not all illegals have done anything wrong OTHER than cross the border illegally, no not ALL politicians are immoral, corrupt money and attention grabbing idiots, and not all news people will do ANYTHING possible to INVENT a news story when there is none.

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wrote:

I'm 59, substantially over 50.
mm

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wrote:

production. It only grows in the sub-tropics and Florida is trying to throw the cane farms out. They an an ecological disaster ... as wouild any farming effort large enough to replace oil would be. Brazil is destroyng the rain forest to make ethanol. That is worse than the "oil problem"
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Rich256 wrote:

It seems most estimates come in the range of it taking 3/4 to 1.25 (sometimes up to 3)gallons of gas or diesel to produce a gallon of ethanol, & the most favorable studies show it a wash AT BEST.
THEN you have to figure in the lower energy of ethanol on top of that... a 28 mpg(on gas - highway) Taurus(Taurus FFV - the ones with the little green leaf front fender badges) becomes something like 20 mpg on E85(15% gas, 85% ethanol).
It's been a while since I've done it, but you can do a web search for "E85 Taurus" to get some of the empirical data from these tests.
Rob
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For many weedwackers, the test makes sense. If they run 90% gas and 105 ethanol, they've left out the oil. What's the mix, 1:32? If so, you should have about 3% oil. Shouldn't the mix be 9.7% eth, 3.1% oil and 87.2% gas?
Am I being too literal (and cynical) here?
Never underestimate the ability to make a study say what you want.
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wrote:

I figured they still used the oil. I didn't think ethanol would function as a replacemnt for that.
But the article doesn't say, which counts imo as one of the things wrong with the "study".

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Our OIL driven economy is being held hostage to the middle eastern dictators.
terrorists dont like us because we meddle there
So I say build the plants and convert the cars as fast as possible, and let them drown in their own oil....
growing corn or vegetable waste for conversion into ethanol might help reduce global warming, as the plants clean the air.
Ih yeah make all ethanol TOTALLY TAX FREE FOR 10 YEARS TO ENCOURAGE THE CONVERSION!
just this alone will save about 50 cents a gallon on the pump price
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Its odd that you don't hear anything about research on using water, Which contains the ingrediants for combustion, Hydogen and Oxygen. Is it because its so plentiful that the fat Cats couldn't milk the public? Politics is dirty stinking dirty.
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