Creating a 220 circuit?

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Are we forgetting that he was proposing adding one?
240V outlets aren't exactly rare. Most homes made within the past decade or more have two. Mine has four (two for the aforementioned 240V 4800W construction cube heaters).
Your comment is rather like pooh-poohing the idea of a 240V arc welder simply because not many people have 240V sockets for one. Obviously. If you want to run a 240V arc welder, you're probably going to have to install one.
Ditto 240V power tools. Which aren't exactly rare either.
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Special wires for heaters? OMG!! Someone go tell every electric furnace maker that the stranded copper they use is NOT right...

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On 14 Nov 2003, CBHvac wrote:


Yep. Ol JJ was actually doing OK there, just went one line too far (lol).
To Original Poster, hopefully you're still reading:
I missed a few posts in the thread, I hope the hell somebody pointed out that you absolutely can't do this with two separate, single pole breakers, that it's against code and unsafe to do it that way. If the circuit fails from overcurrent, a proper double-pole breaker interrupts -both- sides of the line. If you try to half-ass it with 2 single 20's, it's likely one will trip and the other stay closed, leaving you with 1 hot wire out at the end of your supposedly "dead" circuit. That's how people get zapped/killed.
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so you'll use the 14/2 cables for heating then? you'll just take an extension from a standard outlet to run your electric heater?
there's different gauges for different types of circuits, and heaters have their own type of wire.
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Where did you get 14/2 all of a sudden? lol

We're talkin' about the feed wire...not the device wire.

But not the CIRCUIT wire...and that's what we've been talkin' about here.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
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Maybe. If the voltage is high enough.
But I betcha that it ain't NM on a blast furnace.

When people speak "type" in this context, they don't mean wire _size_ for heck's sake.
They're meaning "type" in a NEC or CEC sense. Insulation type. Temperature rating. Physical characteristics. Eg: NM vs. NMD, NMW, SJ, SOW, UF, AC, TEC etc.
An in-wall circuit for a plug-connected heater will be the same _type_ as any other in-wall circuitry under the same conditions. Just potentially a different wire size due to ampacity requirements.
On the other hand, if the wire _enters_ a device that produces heat, under most codes it has to be 90C rated.
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No...actually,
1-Electric heaters are garbage...unless they are in duct units.. 2- I dont use extension cords like you get at Home Depot...mine are rated at 25A, even the 100 foot ones...heavy mofos for sure..

OMG..this is getting better...have you ever seen the wire used in a small electric heater? Its oversized 9 times out of 10...BUT, its plain old copper strand..not a damn thing fancy about it. Now...have you ever seen an induct heater? say...one thats rated at 20kW? Have you ever noticed how freaking small those wires are? The ONLY special wires in an electric heater, are the ELEMENTS themselves...thats it...nothing fancy at all about the wiring used to feed them, and to say otherwise, is wrong. I just re-strung a 75kW heater..and have a 200kW heater to re-string...funny how when I m done, all new copper wire will be used on the feed wires..and actually, the elements are not all that fancy.. Do you know how the kilowatt ratings are come by, and how the number of turns per inch on the element effects the total? How about the diameter of the twist? How about the diameter of the wire? No sir...nothing at all fancy about the wires...some of the 10kW heaters use a little old 14G wire to cover them from the relays...but....you knew that...right??
Now..its time to figure out what in hell you are talking about, since so far, you are clueless.

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Except the wire_insulation_.

Yes, and if you bother to take a closer look at them you will see that the wire insulation is indeed temperature rated.........usually 105C or even 150C. A higher temperature rated wire can carry larger currents, _that's_ why the wires can be smaller. Normal building wire (installed since the late 1980's) is usually only rated at 90C........sometimes lower.

No, you are wrong. Wires inside heating equipment connected to the heating elements are indeed high temperature wire (105C or 150C). Take a look at the warning sticker next to the terminal block sometime.......it will _always_ specify a minimum temperature rating for the circuit feeder wires........usually 75C or 90C minimum supply wires with the high-temp wires coming off the load side of the terminal block. There's still plenty of 60C wire installed and on the market too.....and it's not going away anytime soon. I suppose you think that ranges also have regular building wire (90C) inside them?

Well, that's scarry as hell coming from a residential HVAC contractor. If you used regular building wire you better go and re-string those heaters with high-temp wire.........or call an electrician like you should have done in the first place. Even water heaters have high-temp wire.

Yeah, and they sure don't use regular building wire. Even many light fixtures have a special high temperature wire and require that the supply building wire be at least rated for 90C. I seen some light fixtures that require a 105C _supply_ wire.

Hmmmmmm.......pot calling the kettle black.
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Clueless....you worry me...you are supposed to be an electrician, yet, the kits from Carrier, York, Trane, Goodman..etc...all use tiny little copper wires for handling those heaters, and I did check the temp rating on the factory wires....60C..nothing real fancy...105....that would be special...not.. BTW..electricians, by law, are not allowed to work on HVAC heaters here in this state....most screw em up...nothing personal, just fact.
Your experence, and mine, will vary..but when you restring a heater, the strings have NO insulation on them, and use ceramic insulators...and a 1.4 inch aluminuim nut...go figure that out...weird eh? Factory btw..some use stainless, but only a few.
The ONLY "special" wire in most units, are older Carrier units that use a stainless resistance wire to the HSI unit...but those have been normally replace with a new module, and ignitor, so thats not even the norm.
I wasnt trying to make this something to bitch about, but there is STILL nothing special on larger units. Perhaps on the dinky little home units that you plug into a wall, but I dont screw with those...at all.
No...the pot wasnt calling the kettle black...sorry to say...I dont claim to be an electrician, ( I dont think I could survive on your rates) and most electricans dont claim to know HVAC...and here, those that do, better damn sure have a licence from the pipefitters board.

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There's millions of electric heating units out there that have hi-temp wiring........but _your_ electric heating equipment is wired with 60C wire.........yeah right.

Yeah, nobody can butcher electric wiring better than an HVAC tech...........just fact. Something you just shown by insisting that wire is wire, don't need no stinking hi-temp stuff to wire up heaters.

Yeah, and they aren't made out of copper either, try Ni-Chrome.

You're the one who started with the OMG's.

I never claimed to be an HVAC tech, but I do know that hi-temp wire is required for heating units (NOT the heating _elements_ ,geez). Go bullshit someone else. What good is that HVAC equipment without power? Oh that's right, you residential HVAC guys have no problem jumping over to Div.16 when you need power.
Bottom line is this: The supply wires from the electric panel to the heating unit disconnect and/or on to the terminal block are regular building wire (90C). The wires inside the heating unit from the terminal block to the connection to the heating elements are a high-temp wire, usually 150C. The heating element itself is Ni-Chrome or similar alloy. Like I said, this can easily be verified by _anyone_ by simply looking at the temp. rating of the wire from the terminal block to the connection to the heating element. Obviously you've never used any hi-temp wire when you change out factory wiring in heating units or you'd be complaining about the PRICE..........or is that how you really make all that money........installing wire that costs $0.07/foot when you should be wiring the unit with the $2.50/foot stuff?
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Lemmie guess...
Not only are you clueless, but Tommys a better electrician than you...
Go wire a few units, and just for you, I will be sure to take a brand new heating element out of the box, and snap a couple of shots of the freaking wire to prove you are clueless.
I wont fight with you...you lost already...and as far as Ni-Chrome..its not the ONLY wire used...but then, I have a company out in TX that mkes custom stuff for the larger units.
Bullshit someone? Not you...that happened when you got talked into working as a Sparky.
:)
Have a nice one...and dont kill anyone in the process...I know I wont.

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Are you talkin' about the feed wires from the breaker?
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
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It would trip instantly as both are on GFCI. The GFCI will trip if both the hot and neutral are not presented with the exact same load and the equal current. You would be using only the hot on each. Also the other advice given applies, gross violation of code and safety. Get an electrician in to wire it properly or say goodbye to the garage. Insurance would NOT cover the loss.
-- Mike D.
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wrote:

Not exactly that way, Henry...but I *THINK* you can. You should check with a licensed electrician before the hook-up, however.
This is what I *THINK* you'd hafta do to set it up properly...
1. You need to have a wire (circuit) from each of the legs of your breaker box. You can't just hook up 2 wires...they hafta be on different sides in the box.
2. You'd hafta have a special breaker in the box...so that both lines would trip at the same time.
3. You'd hafta tap into the lines at the FRONT the GFCI...so that the GFCI's don't come into play.
4. You might trip the breaker with the current draw...but maybe not.
But it MIGHT be possible. lol
I've got several electric heaters that do a good job...and run off 110. You might consider that also.
Spend a coupla bucks...get an electrician to look at it. But it might be an easy project.
Good luck.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
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To get everything into one place:
1) There is a 50:50 chance it won't work at all. If the two circuits are off the same leg of the 240V service, you'll get zero volts to the heater.
2) The 4500W is essentially 100% of the breaker limit. Adding virtually anything to it will overload the breakers.
3) Running at 100% of the breakers and wire rating as far as your garage is likely to be from the panel makes me nervous.
At first glance, Code violations of what you're proposing:
1) A 4500W heater needs to be on a 30A 220V circuit by the "80% rule" ("long term" loads should not be more than 80% of the circuit).
2) You can't simply up the breakers - your 120V circuits are probably on 12ga wire, which is too small. You need 10ga.
3) You can't combine feeds for a device from multiple cables. Thus, you must use 10/2 (with ground) or better (no neutral is necessary, unless the plug on the heater is 4 prong.).
4) Must be a dual breaker with common trip.
5) You can't run 120V devices from a circuit also used to supply separate 240V devices.
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Forgot one:
4) It will instantly trip the GFCIs becaused you're not using the neutrals, but GFCIs trip when neutral and hot current are different.
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snipped-for-privacy@nortelnetworks.com (Chris Lewis) writes:

Well I don't know the NEC, but in Canada (at least Ontario) you could use #12 cable for up to the full 4800 Watts as long as it's for a fixed load. In fact the example in Knight is specifically for an electrical heater with a 30 amp breaker and #12 cable with a max load of 4800, this is on page 109 of the Ontario Knight.
However the maximum run length is 100ft to the first heater, which is probably too short to reach his garage. What's worse, if the two cables are run together he can't run them to their maximum like this. Also, I'm not exactly sure what type of heaters he's talking about, the section in Knight is specifically for baseboard heaters, this might not qualify.
Perhaps the original poster (if he's still around) should consider instead buying two 3600 watt heaters and converting both circuits to 240V.
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greg

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I think you are still going to have 120 volts no matter how many black wires you combine. Find a red and black wire to get 220 volts. I have old wiring in my house and managed to find an extra 240 circuit. I had to buy some wire and string it to garage from box. I don't think i put any fuses on the line which means unlimited amps which is nice if i don't burn house down. Use heavy wire to accommodate 30 amps. lower gauge is thicker wire and accommodates higher amps. make sure you have fire insurance.
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