An intelligent moron is simply a contradiction in terms, not an oxymoron. I think you meant an intelligent ignoramus; and no, that's not an oxymoron either. Sadly, you will find many of them in the underclass. Perhaps a learned moron is an oxymoron, since it is possible but most unlikely.
However, jj is almost certainly both a moron and an ignoramus.
According to j j :
Are we forgetting that he was proposing adding one?
240V outlets aren't exactly rare. Most homes made within the past decade or more have two. Mine has four (two for the aforementioned 240V 4800W construction cube heaters).Your comment is rather like pooh-poohing the idea of a 240V arc welder simply because not many people have 240V sockets for one. Obviously. If you want to run a 240V arc welder, you're probably going to have to install one.
Ditto 240V power tools. Which aren't exactly rare either.
As opposed to a learned moron or an intelligent moron? Are these oxymorons? (pun intended) hahahahahahaha
Stan
Main Entry: ig·no·rant Pronunciation: 'ig-n(&-)r&nt Function: adjective Date: 14th century
1 a : destitute of knowledge or education ; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligenceMain Entry: mo·ron Pronunciation: 'mOr-"än, 'mor- Function: noun Etymology: irregular from Greek mOros foolish, stupid Date: 1910
1 : a mentally retarded person who has a potential mental age of between 8 and 12 years and is capable of doing routine work under supervision 2 : a very stupid pers>{Delete nospam for email}
Let's assume the guy that ran the circuits to the garage knew a LITTLE bit about electricity.
Now...let's assume that even YOU know a little bit about electricity.
Now...takin' into account what you know about electricity (and if you get this wrong, BTW, we won't hold it against you)...
...would you run 2 circuits off the SAME leg? Or would you run 2 circuits...one from EACH leg?
Remember...your answer has NO bearing on what he actually has there. But MOST garages have no need for 2 20A. circuits. One circuit alone can usually handle the garage door opener, lights, etc.
So...TWO circuits MIGHT have been a plan for some 220 stuff...but not necessarily.
My last post on this to you. Just seems like you've got a hair up your ass again.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
Yes, and you MIGHT be a normal person just pretending to be an dumb jerk. But you aren't, and his circuits aren't "a plan for some 220 stuff." I take back what I said about your imagination; that is really wild!
Could it be your last post to me on anything, please? And just because you put things up your ass, you can't assume everyone else does.
That is possible, but it almost confirms my original point. Way back when, the poster said that a 4500w heater drew 21a at 220v.
A 4500w heater would have 12.8o resistance, so it's draw at 220v is 17a. Yes?
Except the wire_insulation_.
Yes, and if you bother to take a closer look at them you will see that the wire insulation is indeed temperature rated.........usually 105C or even
150C. A higher temperature rated wire can carry larger currents, _that's_ why the wires can be smaller. Normal building wire (installed since the late 1980's) is usually only rated at 90C........sometimes lower.No, you are wrong. Wires inside heating equipment connected to the heating elements are indeed high temperature wire (105C or 150C). Take a look at the warning sticker next to the terminal block sometime.......it will _always_ specify a minimum temperature rating for the circuit feeder wires........usually 75C or 90C minimum supply wires with the high-temp wires coming off the load side of the terminal block. There's still plenty of 60C wire installed and on the market too.....and it's not going away anytime soon. I suppose you think that ranges also have regular building wire (90C) inside them?
re-string...funny
Well, that's scarry as hell coming from a residential HVAC contractor. If you used regular building wire you better go and re-string those heaters with high-temp wire.........or call an electrician like you should have done in the first place. Even water heaters have high-temp wire.
Yeah, and they sure don't use regular building wire. Even many light fixtures have a special high temperature wire and require that the supply building wire be at least rated for 90C. I seen some light fixtures that require a 105C _supply_ wire.
Hmmmmmm.......pot calling the kettle black.
According to Trent© :
I'd do it only if it was convenient and it made sense to do it for balancing loads across legs. New construction in cookie-cutter houses, they'd not pay attention. If they were part of seperate revisions, no, wouldn't pay attention. Under normal circumstances, it'd be mostly a matter of luck.
Codes like having major motors on their own circuit. If it was a two door garage, two circuits QED. There is also some code requirements about per-bay ampacity requirements up here (block heaters etc).
Absolutely NOT.
Unless the two circuits were in the same cable, 220V is _not_ a legal "future" plan, and thus is irrelevant. Period.
IF the OP's 220V device was within the ampacity limit of the existing
12ga wire, the best and cheapest way to legally get 220V is to convert just one of the 120V circuits to 220V (swap a dual breaker in place of the single, wire the white wire to the other breaker. Mark both ends of the white wire with tape or whatever. Still have the other 120V circuit.According to Wade Lippman :
This is how I figure it:
I believe the 4500W is computed at max permissible voltage: 240V + 5% = 252V This leads to a current of 17.86A, 14.12ohms.
Minimum operating voltage (worst-case total voltage drop) is 220V. Assuming resistance the same (it will be lower due to lower operating temperature), that's 15.6A. Which is 3433W. But that ignores the temperature coefficient of the heater element - true power and current would be somewhat higher, how much higher depends on the unit.
Clueless....you worry me...you are supposed to be an electrician, yet, the kits from Carrier, York, Trane, Goodman..etc...all use tiny little copper wires for handling those heaters, and I did check the temp rating on the factory wires....60C..nothing real fancy...105....that would be special...not.. BTW..electricians, by law, are not allowed to work on HVAC heaters here in this state....most screw em up...nothing personal, just fact.
Your experence, and mine, will vary..but when you restring a heater, the strings have NO insulation on them, and use ceramic insulators...and a 1.4 inch aluminuim nut...go figure that out...weird eh? Factory btw..some use stainless, but only a few.
The ONLY "special" wire in most units, are older Carrier units that use a stainless resistance wire to the HSI unit...but those have been normally replace with a new module, and ignitor, so thats not even the norm.
I wasnt trying to make this something to bitch about, but there is STILL nothing special on larger units. Perhaps on the dinky little home units that you plug into a wall, but I dont screw with those...at all.
No...the pot wasnt calling the kettle black...sorry to say...I dont claim to be an electrician, ( I dont think I could survive on your rates) and most electricans dont claim to know HVAC...and here, those that do, better damn sure have a licence from the pipefitters board.
I think you are still going to have 120 volts no matter how many black wires you combine. Find a red and black wire to get 220 volts. I have old wiring in my house and managed to find an extra 240 circuit. I had to buy some wire and string it to garage from box. I don't think i put any fuses on the line which means unlimited amps which is nice if i don't burn house down. Use heavy wire to accommodate 30 amps. lower gauge is thicker wire and accommodates higher amps. make sure you have fire insurance.
Cable? I guess I'm not following. I'm talking about running 3 wires
We don't even know where those 20A. BREAKERS are? lol
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
As he said, he did not give advice. It was all just a very good ploy to get you to "wade" in with your vast storehouse of knowledge to give the OP some productive additional information ... and possibly the guidance he requested (after weeding out all of the insults to the other less worthy members of the NG :)
There's millions of electric heating units out there that have hi-temp wiring........but _your_ electric heating equipment is wired with 60C wire.........yeah right.
Yeah, nobody can butcher electric wiring better than an HVAC tech...........just fact. Something you just shown by insisting that wire is wire, don't need no stinking hi-temp stuff to wire up heaters.
Yeah, and they aren't made out of copper either, try Ni-Chrome.
You're the one who started with the OMG's.
I never claimed to be an HVAC tech, but I do know that hi-temp wire is required for heating units (NOT the heating _elements_ ,geez). Go bullshit someone else. What good is that HVAC equipment without power? Oh that's right, you residential HVAC guys have no problem jumping over to Div.16 when you need power.
Bottom line is this: The supply wires from the electric panel to the heating unit disconnect and/or on to the terminal block are regular building wire (90C). The wires inside the heating unit from the terminal block to the connection to the heating elements are a high-temp wire, usually 150C. The heating element itself is Ni-Chrome or similar alloy. Like I said, this can easily be verified by _anyone_ by simply looking at the temp. rating of the wire from the terminal block to the connection to the heating element. Obviously you've never used any hi-temp wire when you change out factory wiring in heating units or you'd be complaining about the PRICE..........or is that how you really make all that money........installing wire that costs $0.07/foot when you should be wiring the unit with the $2.50/foot stuff?
Lemmie guess...
Not only are you clueless, but Tommys a better electrician than you...
Go wire a few units, and just for you, I will be sure to take a brand new heating element out of the box, and snap a couple of shots of the freaking wire to prove you are clueless.
I wont fight with you...you lost already...and as far as Ni-Chrome..its not the ONLY wire used...but then, I have a company out in TX that mkes custom stuff for the larger units.
Bullshit someone? Not you...that happened when you got talked into working as a Sparky.
:)
Have a nice one...and dont kill anyone in the process...I know I wont.
PRICE..........or
According to Trent© :
The OP appeared to be talking about a pre-existing cable installation, not conduit.
Wires sharing conduit count as "cable" in this context. But, if you were to combine two 120V circuits (which have one neutral apiece) in this way, you'd have to common the neutral (abandoning one of them).
In the breaker panel one would assume. Where else?
If you were converting a 120V circuit to 220V, you can often get away with swapping an existing single breaker with a half-width dual, no panel shuffling required.
I always get a kick out of threads that go the way this one has gone...creating all kinds of assumptions.
The 'appeared' in this case seems to be one of those instances. It didn't 'appear' to ME whether there was cable run out there...or wires in a conduit. I've seen a lot of both type of installations.
Yer right, of course...or I hope yer right. I wonder where the breaker box is...that's what I *REALLY* meant to ask. It could be in either location...or both.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
Well I don't know the NEC, but in Canada (at least Ontario) you could use #12 cable for up to the full 4800 Watts as long as it's for a fixed load. In fact the example in Knight is specifically for an electrical heater with a 30 amp breaker and #12 cable with a max load of 4800, this is on page 109 of the Ontario Knight.
However the maximum run length is 100ft to the first heater, which is probably too short to reach his garage. What's worse, if the two cables are run together he can't run them to their maximum like this. Also, I'm not exactly sure what type of heaters he's talking about, the section in Knight is specifically for baseboard heaters, this might not qualify.
Perhaps the original poster (if he's still around) should consider instead buying two 3600 watt heaters and converting both circuits to 240V.
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