Creating a 220 circuit?

Special wires for heaters? OMG!! Someone go tell every electric furnace maker that the stranded copper they use is NOT right...

Reply to
CBHvac
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Yep. Ol JJ was actually doing OK there, just went one line too far (lol).

To Original Poster, hopefully you're still reading:

I missed a few posts in the thread, I hope the hell somebody pointed out that you absolutely can't do this with two separate, single pole breakers, that it's against code and unsafe to do it that way. If the circuit fails from overcurrent, a proper double-pole breaker interrupts -both- sides of the line. If you try to half-ass it with 2 single 20's, it's likely one will trip and the other stay closed, leaving you with 1 hot wire out at the end of your supposedly "dead" circuit. That's how people get zapped/killed.

Reply to
I-zheet M'drurz

so you'll use the 14/2 cables for heating then? you'll just take an extension from a standard outlet to run your electric heater?

there's different gauges for different types of circuits, and heaters have their own type of wire.

Reply to
j j

High-temperature insulation. 75 and 90 deg C are typical, but some types are rated for *much* higher temperatures.

-- Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?

Reply to
Doug Miller

Here's another violation to add to the list: a multiwire circuit such as the OP proposes requires an overcurrent device that will *simultaneously* disconnect *both* legs of the circuit.

-- Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?

Reply to
Doug Miller

Are you talkin' about the feed wires from the breaker?

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

Reply to
Trent©

But nobody knows that he doesn't have that NOW.

See election results for...

1968 1980 1992 1996

...and many more.

There's ALWAYS more than 50 candidates for Miss America.

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

Reply to
Trent©

Where did you get 14/2 all of a sudden? lol

We're talkin' about the feed wire...not the device wire.

But not the CIRCUIT wire...and that's what we've been talkin' about here.

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

Reply to
Trent©

Not exactly that way, Henry...but I *THINK* you can. You should check with a licensed electrician before the hook-up, however.

This is what I *THINK* you'd hafta do to set it up properly...

  1. You need to have a wire (circuit) from each of the legs of your breaker box. You can't just hook up 2 wires...they hafta be on different sides in the box.
  2. You'd hafta have a special breaker in the box...so that both lines would trip at the same time.
  3. You'd hafta tap into the lines at the FRONT the GFCI...so that the GFCI's don't come into play.
  4. You might trip the breaker with the current draw...but maybe not.

But it MIGHT be possible. lol

I've got several electric heaters that do a good job...and run off

110. You might consider that also.

Spend a coupla bucks...get an electrician to look at it. But it might be an easy project.

Good luck.

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

Reply to
Trent©

In article , "Wade Lippman" wrote: >>

much lower risk of fire from a light bulb?

Reply to
j j

We _do_ know that the circuit conductors are not in the same cable, which violates another NEC rule, Section 300.3(B). Circuit conductors must be ran in the same cable/raceway to reduce inductive heating and avoid increasing the overall circuit impedance.......otherwise the breaker may not trip in the event of a ground-fault.

The OP also mentioned using a neutral, which isn't needed.

As mentioned by others, NEC Section 424.3(B) would also be violated because it requires that the circuit for the heater be rated for 125% of the total load. 4500 watts/ 240 volts = 18.75 amps. 18.75 amps x 125% = 23.4 amps, so he needs a #10 wire and a 25 or 30 amp breaker. If not for that requirement, one of the individual circuits could easily and "legally" be converted to 240 volt, just not the way the OP wants to do it.

"Theoretically", he could use baling wire and some black tape.

Reply to
volts500

Do you have any idea at all what high temperature insulation means? I thought not. If you are the alphageek, I hate to think how dumb the betageek is.

Reply to
Wade Lippman

Specifically, what special wire are your talking about, or do you not have the faintest idea? And why would a properly sized romex circuit care whether a heater or a light bulb is attached to it?

Reply to
Wade Lippman

You mean conduit, of course. How do we know that? I didn't read that fact anywhere.

More than likely, it IS in the same raceway...if its goin' to a garage. I can't imagine someone runnin' 2 separate sections for 2 separate lines...especially on the same leg.

He probably has 220 out there now.

For the size wire and the breakers, he'd be fine. He may have a problem with that heater, however.

That was my question at the beginning. I've seen a lot of Q&A about going from 220 to 110. But I've never seen any going in the other direction.

Does code allow that?...at any place you want along the circuits?

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

Reply to
Trent©

He meant cable, and so does the NEC. I take it you didn't read the NEC anywhere either.

You need a better imagination.

Then why would he even ask this question?

Then he's not too fine, is he?

Uh, just do the opposite...connect the black and white to a 2 pole breaker. There isn't much more basic than that

You better do it at the beginning and end of the circuits. Where else would you want to do it?

You have a nice day Trent.

Reply to
Wade Lippman

According to Henry B. :

To get everything into one place:

1) There is a 50:50 chance it won't work at all. If the two circuits are off the same leg of the 240V service, you'll get zero volts to the heater.

2) The 4500W is essentially 100% of the breaker limit. Adding virtually anything to it will overload the breakers.

3) Running at 100% of the breakers and wire rating as far as your garage is likely to be from the panel makes me nervous.

At first glance, Code violations of what you're proposing:

1) A 4500W heater needs to be on a 30A 220V circuit by the "80% rule" ("long term" loads should not be more than 80% of the circuit).

2) You can't simply up the breakers - your 120V circuits are probably on 12ga wire, which is too small. You need 10ga.

3) You can't combine feeds for a device from multiple cables. Thus, you must use 10/2 (with ground) or better (no neutral is necessary, unless the plug on the heater is 4 prong.).

4) Must be a dual breaker with common trip.

5) You can't run 120V devices from a circuit also used to supply separate 240V devices.
Reply to
Chris Lewis

According to Wade Lippman :

I count at least 5. 50:50 chance of it working at all.

Reply to
Chris Lewis

According to Wade Lippman :

Allowable voltage at the _panel_.

By the time it gets to the fixture, it could (allowably) be down another 6%.

220V is the _minimum_ code-permitted voltage at the device. That's where the "220" terminology comes from.

The 4500W is "worst case draw" under "allowable conditions", which with a resistive load will be 240V _plus_ 5%. Which means that under "average" conditions, the wattage will be less than 4500.

With an electric motor, it's the opposite. Max current is at _minimum_ allowable voltage while producing rated power.

Reply to
Chris Lewis

According to Wade Lippman :

It doesn't.

The stuff about 90C wire matters _only_ when you're wiring _inside_ fixtures that produce heat or are likely to get hot.

For example: inside flourescent fixtures. Inside ceiling J-boxes that hang lamps. Inside baseboard heaters.

An in-wall circuit supplying a 30A receptacle for a (say) construction cube heater does not need to be anything but ordinary NMD (can you still use "ordinary" NM down there?).

Up here, everything is NMD or better.

Reply to
Chris Lewis

According to Doug Miller :

I think you're getting confused by the requirements for appliance cords on toasters, electric kettles etc.

In-wall circuitry for a plug-connected heater doesn't need any different wire than other circuitry.

Reply to
Chris Lewis

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