Constitutionality of light bulb ban questioned - Environmental Protection Agency must be called for a broken bulb

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| snipped-for-privacy@NOSPAMgmail.com says... |> daestrom wrote: |> > |> > Any of this sound familiar? Just replace 'broker' with 'mortgage |> > broker' and 'stock' with 'real-estate'. |> > |> > After the crash, stricter regulations were put in place about buying |> > on margin and most people got smarter about buying on margin. Probably a |> > similar thing will happen now with mortgages. |> > |> |> Won't happen. |> |> If stricter rules were employed in the mortgage market, those traditionally |> deprived, downtrodden, and discriminated against couldn't afford a home |> beyond their means. Further, segregated and gated communities would remain |> off-limits to other classes of citizens.| | That is not the problem at all. The real problem is "toxic CDOs" | and the margins the people who rolled these instruments used. Add | in any *slight* downturn and you have a instant busted bank. Like | the crash above, the margins on these real estate budles is quite | low (as low as 3%, AIUI). A *minute* downturn and it's in negative | territory. When you start getting defaults...
Then the banks start cutting back on loans and the demand side of the supply/demand ratio drops, leading to even lower prices, more upside- down mortgages, more defaults, etc.
|> The minions that determine the final regulations are committed to equality |> of outcome.| | True, but not really this issue.
it will affect the direction of the solution. The solution used in the stock market can't be the same as used in the housing market because of this.
|> Whatever laws the legislative branch writes or whatever rules are |> implemented by political appointees, the silliness will prevail. | | That is definitely true. There is no end to silly season anymore.
Unfortunately, this is true way too often.
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snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net says...

Exactly, but it needn't go that far to leave banks, and such, bankrupt. All it takes is a 3% real estate decline and the value of the instrument is negative. Real estate declining to 97% of its value from the peak of a bubble isn't much of a "downturn".

The real problem is that the toxic CDOs have invaded the stock market, as well. Banks are required (after the '29 crash) to keep much higher margins. The stock (bond) market isn't under such restrictions with CDOs. That's why you have money that was borrowed 30 times. Banks can't do that.

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snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

The dirty little secret behind sub-prime morgtages is that they were CAUSED by government regulation. The government required a significant percentage of banking and morgtage business to take place in "deprived" or "under-served" areas. Absence of a branch bank, for example, on a street where the only other retail services were hookers and dope-dealers was evidence sufficient of discrimination!
In many cases, the only way a lender could fluff up their percentage of minority business was to offer bizarre financial instruments. This they had to do to meet the requirements of the regulators who had set minimum minority participation requirements. To simply tell the regulators such antics were bad business would be met with the same retort as was given to Dagny Taggart when she pulled the rolling stock out of Mexico: "The deserve the best we have!"

True, and we can take advantage of their foolishness. If Bangladesh wants to subsidize the manufacture of sneakers by 6-year olds such that we end up with really swell tennis shoes for two bucks, then I'm all for it.
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wrote:

They were CAUSED by GREED!
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snipped-for-privacy@thusspoke.org says...

...by those feeding off the national teat in Washington.
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StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt wrote:

Right. Greed is good.
A great worthy once said "If not for greed, no man would marry, build a house, or father a child."
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| StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt wrote:
|> wrote:|> |>> |>> The dirty little secret behind sub-prime morgtages is that they were |>> CAUSED by government regulation.|> |> |> They were CAUSED by GREED!| | Right. Greed is good.
Greed is good only to the extent it motivates people to act within the law. The law is good when it ensures that greed has no negative impact on the society as a whole.
| A great worthy once said "If not for greed, no man would marry, build a | house, or father a child."
Lots of non-greedy people accomplish these things.
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snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

We don't punish motivations. Likewise, the law DOES punish those who, with the best of intentions, have a "negative impact" on society. It is the result of the motivation that counts.
Consider Albert Sabin as he hovered over the microscope looking for a polio vaccine. The many thoughts running through his mind probably included many emotions that people reject: GREED ("If I can whip this, I can do the kind of research I want!), PRIDE ("People will shake my hand and say nice things about me"), ENVY ("And I'm tired of Jonas Salk getting all the praise"), and a whole lot more.
The result, of course, of these despicable emotions was that polio has been eradicated in my lifetime.

Right. The point being that "greed" is not the issue nor should it be punished.
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| snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: |>> |>> Right. Greed is good.|> |> Greed is good only to the extent it motivates people to act within |> the law. The law is good when it ensures that greed has no negative |> impact on the society as a whole.| | We don't punish motivations. Likewise, the law DOES punish those who, with | the best of intentions, have a "negative impact" on society. It is the | result of the motivation that counts.
Those with good intentions should only make good (make whole) for their errors. If they intended to profit from good intentions, and failed to do so, then they have learned their own lessons. They will act smarter the next time.
Those with bad intentions should also pay more. If not, they may well try again to see what they can get away with. That payment can vary from extra payment beyond making whole, to jail time, depending.
Note, that I do include as bad intentions things like advertising untruths, and mistakes that could have been avoided were it not for cost cutting.
| Consider Albert Sabin as he hovered over the microscope looking for a polio | vaccine. The many thoughts running through his mind probably included many | emotions that people reject: GREED ("If I can whip this, I can do the kind | of research I want!), PRIDE ("People will shake my hand and say nice things | about me"), ENVY ("And I'm tired of Jonas Salk getting all the praise"), and | a whole lot more. | | The result, of course, of these despicable emotions was that polio has been | eradicated in my lifetime.
All these things led in the right direction in his case. It is a case of greed (or pride or envy) leading to something that benefits everyone (or at least doesn't impact anyone).
Something I learned about in business many years ago was the difference between "creating value" and "diverting value". Creating value is when you create something that benefits at least someone while not harming anyone. Profiting from it is quite reasonable. Diverting value is when you profit in some way that takes away from someone. There is a wide scope of this and not all are obvious. This can include price gouging, false advertising, anti-competetive actitivties, etc.
|>> A great worthy once said "If not for greed, no man would marry, |>> build a house, or father a child."|> |> Lots of non-greedy people accomplish these things.|> | | Right. The point being that "greed" is not the issue nor should it be | punished.
A"greed" :-) Greed is orthogonal. It can be good or bad depending on how it is applied or used. Misapplication should be punished.
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| snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:
|>>> I do like the idea of taxing the incandescent bulbs. But I also |>>> like the idea of taxing cheap imports.|>>> |>> |>> Then there are those who are opposed to using tax laws to promote |>> public policy. Taxes distort the marketplace.|> |> And I am not one of those. The marketplace needs to be distorted in |> a few places. The market for subprime mortgage origination comes to |> mind as my first place, if you need an example.| | The dirty little secret behind sub-prime morgtages is that they were CAUSED | by government regulation. The government required a significant percentage | of banking and morgtage business to take place in "deprived" or | "under-served" areas. Absence of a branch bank, for example, on a street | where the only other retail services were hookers and dope-dealers was | evidence sufficient of discrimination!
There's a whole lot more than that involved. Some mortgage companies were not affected by this beyond the extent to which the whole economy was. Lots of falsified origination took place. Then these instruments were sold improperly to organizations that didn't properly check them out.
| True, and we can take advantage of their foolishness. If Bangladesh wants to | subsidize the manufacture of sneakers by 6-year olds such that we end up | with really swell tennis shoes for two bucks, then I'm all for it.
That's the un-level playing field that can decimate the industries of other countries.
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On Jun 21, 8:20pm, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Where the USA, rightly or wrongly has a reputation of being one of the most protectionist states in the Americas; whether it is cheaper lettuce from say Chile or taxing imports from elsewhere to 'protect' US industry/agriculture or lumber! Maybe where defence is involved one can understand; the 'Eurofighter' may be a better aircraft but it may be better to have Boeing or Northrupp actually make them??? But the signs are there; other nations are going their own way and depending less on imports/exports from/to the USA as they diversify and rationalize their own industries and agriculture etc. BTW we use cheap light bulbs; about one dollar per pack of four (including our federal sales tax of about 13%) for 40, 60 or 100 watts, in part for heating. Our small bathroom heater rarely cuts in when the six 40 watters (total $1.50) above the vanity are on. And the el cheapo bulbs last for ages. Works fine because we never need (or even own) Air Conditioning.
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Exactly; taxes and tariffs and import controls for no reason other than to satisfy some lobbyist is why Canadian softwood lumber cost US builders more in the US than it does in Canada; due to protectionist tariffs and import restrictions! (About $2000 per house is one estimate!) Anyway; with the bottom dropping out of the US house market Canadian lumber producers have been market diversifying. Along with increasing demands from China and India but with increasing fuel/energy costs for cutting, sawing and transporting etc. the cost will no doubt be a lot higher if/when US demand returns! Unfortunately the blame game continues; in this instance the US government protecting the US lumber industry, (in the USA many woodlots are privately owned) versus claim that Canadian companies are also subsidized because they are paying too low stumpage fees for cutting on publicly owned forest land. China doesn't seem to care as long as it gets wood!
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On Jun 21, 9:44am, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

I just saw a frige on display with leds everywhere, the problem was the color rendition made everything an ugly blue grey, but Leds will get better as cfls have.
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On 21 Jun 2008 03:04:34 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Hi Phil,
I can't predict what will happen five or ten years from now, but I would say most likely "yes". GE is busy developing a new generation of HEI incandescents that will be initially twice as efficient as what is available now and ultimately four times so (roughly the same efficacy as a CFL but at a lower initial cost).
See: http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/ge/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId 070223005120&newsLang=en&ndmConfigId01109&vnsIdh1
Cheers, Paul
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wrote: | On 21 Jun 2008 03:04:34 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: |
|>| The bill did _not_ "ban" incandescent bulbs, it set minimum efficiency |>| standards.|> |>So you are saying that in 10 years, I can still buy incandescent bulbs for |>the few places I actually need them?| | Hi Phil, | | I can't predict what will happen five or ten years from now, but I | would say most likely "yes". GE is busy developing a new generation | of HEI incandescents that will be initially twice as efficient as what | is available now and ultimately four times so (roughly the same | efficacy as a CFL but at a lower initial cost). | | See: | http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/ge/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId 070223005120&newsLang=en&ndmConfigId01109&vnsIdh1
FYI, the article has a "permalink" that is shorter:
http://www.businesswire.com/news/ge/20070223005120/en
Are these the ones with the low voltage double encased filament that runs at super-halogen temperatures, and has a circuit inside to deliver the voltage it needs?
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On 21 Jun 2008 14:50:26 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Hi Phil,
Philips uses the approach you describe with their forthcoming line-voltage EcoBoost products (apologies for the length of the links provided below); I don't know if GE will do likewise, but it's certainly possible the first generation of HEI lamps will employ similar technology.
See: http://www.lighting.philips.com/gl_en/news/press/product_innovations/archive_2008/home_ecoclassic.php?main=global&parentC90&id=gl_en_news&lang=en
Additional info here: http://www.lighting.philips.com/gl_en/news/press/product_innovations/archive_2007/press_new_masterclassic_lamp.php?main=global&parentC90&id=gl_en_news&lang=en
Note that this technology is already used in some of their low-voltage MR16 products, less the voltage conversion circuitry, obviously (sorry, text in German).
See: http://www.lighting.philips.com/de_de/architect/lam_prod_news/product_news_306.php?main _de&parent$404188919&id_de_lamps_product_news&lang
GE's new HIR Plus lamps might provide us with some clues.
See: http://www.gelighting.com/na/business_lighting/products/hir_plus_halogen_par38 /
Their 83-watt HIR Plus PAR38 produces 2,030 lumens, which pegs its effacy a hair shy of 24.5 lumens per watt. By comparison, GE's standard 75-watt halogen PAR38 has a rated light output of just 1,050 lumens, for an effacy of 14 lumens/watt. Thus, in addition to their longer service life, these new HIR Plus lamps are nearly twice as efficient as a conventional halogen PAR38.
Cheers, Paul
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Who knows, a new technology may have come along and no one may be making them due to lack of a market.
--
Joseph Meehan

Dia \'s Muire duit
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I expect CFLs to advance a little more, especially with gains in dimming and maybe some models with CRI in the low-mid 90's rather than 82 (with a compromise in light output).
I expect LEDs to continue their pace of advancement, increment by increment in performance, cost, and new varieties. But as LED technology has been incrementing itself along increment by increment, I expect that to remain the story for the next 10-15 years. LED technology appears to me to only be advancing about half as fast as computer technology, maybe a little slower.
There are also metal halide lamps, another technology that has been advancing somewhat and is still advancing, though not as fast as LEDs are advancing.
As a result, I expect displacement of incandescents to be a slow and incremental process that can take another 10-20 years to *mostly* accomplish. Heck, that process was already underway in the early 1980's, when most low-voltage-powered front panel indicator lights were LEDs, and before the mid 1970's those were at least 99% incandescent.
============================== One area where LEDs (and to some extent in recent years other technologies) are displacing incandescents is nightlights.
The old traditional model used a 7 watt incandescent, and often a shade because 7 watt incandescents are rather bright for this job, and it takes more effort to make an 120V incandescent of wattage much lower than 7 watts - or at least it used to. Past 15 years or so, 4 watt incandescent nightlight "bulbs" have been common - still bright enough to usually deserve a shade.
Now, there are many LED night lights available. With ineffeciencies of safe voltage dropping at low cost, most current models of 120V LED night lights are not more efficient than incandescents in photometric terms - but they still achieve efficiency gains by having a spectrum more favorable to making use of night vision when the lighting is dim (higher "s/p ratio"), along with being dim enough to not need a shade. Power consumption of these is mostly around 1/3 watt to 1 watt. Better are green and blue models and the Feit Electric white C7 "bulb". Most other LED light models using white LEDs will have light output degrading significantly year-by-year or even a bit faster.
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 00:29:20 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote:

Hi Don,
I, for one, would happily trade-off some raw lumens for better colour rendering. Do you know of any products available now or in the near future with CRIs in the low to mid 90s?
Cheers, Paul
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In warm color CFL - I know of none.
I was thinking along the lines of making CFL equivalent of Philips TL950/TL930.
There are Ott CFLs with correlated color temp. around 5000 K. However, I find these to be pricier and I perceive hype that I suspect to be for trying to justify a higher price that I feel is excessive. It appears to me that a better basis for selling these would be higher CRI and daylight-like color with less of what I personally feel is hype.
For example, I consider it hype to claim that replicating daylight is best for plants, since plants have low utilization of most of the green portion of the visible spectrum - ever notice the color and spectrum of most plant-growing fluorescents, even more reputable ones (Sylvania)?
These are available at Home Depot. One that I plunked $$ on appears to me to have CRI in the 90-"low 90's" range (along with compromised light output compared to similar CFLs with CRI of 82). If I did not have to pay so much for what I personally feel is hype, I would buy more of these for use where I can use a cool color high-CRI white.
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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