Connecting Ground wire with a Split Bolt

[gfretwell]

It does sound like he has 2 parallel service disconnects grouped on that maypole. That would allow 400a. On the line side of the service disconnect, it is all up to the power company what they want to run. I have seen the PoCo bring the same triplex they use for a 200, to a

320 or 400 service. It is up to the customer to complain that they have low voltage before the PoCo will act. They are eating the I2R losses for that smoking power drop. They usually do size an underground lateral using 310.15(B)(6) but that is still smaller than you get with the regular 310.16 ampacity table.

They are not really serious about wire size until you get to commercial because most homeowners greatly overestimate their power usage ... unless it is Al Gore. ;-)

If you averaged 100a your bill would be almost $2600 a month at .15 a KWH. The PoCo engineering department can see your bill. If it got that big, the DEA would be breaking down your door looking for a grow operation.

[HankG]

No, he has a 400 amp 240 volt single phase service, with 2 200 amp

240 volt fused disconnects - both of which can handle 200 amps of 240 volt loads. That is 200 amps line to line on each disconnect - or 400 amps line to line on the main feed.

If the house has a 200 amp panel, he needs the 200 amp disconnect and OR 200 Amp. Distribution panel with circuit barkers as needed equal to 200 Amps.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

200 amo fuses on that "disconnect" WHICH IS 200 Amp. SERVICE,

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IT IS NOT 400, you do not add each wire Ampacity and total it sums, and call it 400 amp. service. And it could be 208 or 220 or 240 single phase, Voltage is irrelevant. The way you are figuring it out then tree phase would be 600 Amp. service.

- and fusing the other "disconnect" at 200 amps is no problem if he has 200 amp rated triplex feeding the outbuildings. Otherwise, the triplex to each building needs to be rated at least for the capacity of the main breaker in the building in question.

DISCLAIMER: Not an expert!!

quote: "

I believe the green wire is for your protection; not to protect against surges. If an appliance (a clothes washer, for instance) has an internal short, and you touch the metal body, you might be hurt. The green wire (safety ground) connects directly to the metal frame and 'grounds out' any short circuits. IF CONNECTED TO A GROUND.

[tony944]

It does sound like he has 2 parallel service disconnects grouped on on that pole. That would allow 400a.

**************************************************** That would make sense but I do not think, is that what he is saying.. I could be wrong but it is said two fuses each 200 amp. with disconnect ratings of 200 amps. what they believe if one fuse is 200 A. and the other 200 A. that is 400 amp. service, *************************************************** On the line side of the service disconnect, it is all up to the power company what they want to run. I have seen the PoCo bring the same triplex they use for a 200, to a 320 or 400 service. It is up to the customer to complain that they have low voltage before the PoCo will act. They are eating the I2R losses for that smoking power drop. They usually do size an underground lateral using 310.15(B)(6) but that is still smaller than you get with the regular 310.16 ampacity table.

They are not really serious about wire size until you get to commercial because most homeowners greatly overestimate their power usage ... unless it is Al Gore. ;-)

If you averaged 100a your bill would be almost $2600 a month at .15 a KWH. The PoCo engineering department can see your bill. If it got that big, the DEA would be breaking down your door looking for a grow operation.

[tony944]

It does sound like he has 2 parallel service disconnects grouped on that maypole. That would allow 400a. On the line side of the service disconnect, it is all up to the power company what they want to run. I have seen the PoCo bring the same triplex they use for a 200, to a

320 or 400 service. It is up to the customer to complain that they have low voltage before the PoCo will act. They are eating the I2R losses for that smoking power drop. They usually do size an underground lateral using 310.15(B)(6) but that is still smaller than you get with the regular 310.16 ampacity table.

They are not really serious about wire size until you get to commercial because most homeowners greatly overestimate their power usage ... unless it is Al Gore. ;-)

If you averaged 100a your bill would be almost $2600 a month at .15 a KWH. The PoCo engineering department can see your bill. If it got that big, the DEA would be breaking down your door looking for a grow operation. I defiantly do not want go into cost it depend in what bracket your in Tear-1 $ 0.136/Kw. Tear-2 $ 0.155/Kw. Tear-3 $ 0.314/Kw. Tear-4 $ 0.354/Kw. My average cost/ month $285.00 Around 10,000 Kw. per year. Have nice day Gents.

[dpb]

On 11/16/2015 11:36 AM, [e-mail] wrote: ...

In sidebar discussion at the end of the earlier thread where I was digging for the location of my bad neutral he said he has a "small" farm w/ only a couple of old tractors baling a little hay for what seems to be a few head of (presumably?) cattle.

That would seem _way_ excessive service capacity; I wonder if it isn't actually the same as the service here on a far larger operation that has a single service off the pole but that goes back up to the top and from there goes to multiple locations. That certainly would fit more nearly what he described there.

It'd be possible in a larger dairy operation or hog farrowing facility or even poultry with heavy milking machine/refrigeration in the former or HVAC/ventilation loads in the latter, but it certainly doesn't seem that would be the kind of operation he's got.

I think it is just mis-described meself; a pitchure could shew a lot... :)

[trader_4]

He didn't say there were two fuses, he said there were TWO PULL OUT FUSE BLOCKS, ie disconnects. Presumable one is for the house, the other, parallel one is for the barn.

with

Again, that is *not* what he posted.

Try trimming posts too.

[clare]

I believe he has 2 fused disconnects, fused at 200 amps - with 2 fuses in each disconnect block. It is illegal and has been for decades, to have "main" fuses that are not pulled as a pair at the "disconnect" The one "disconnect" feeds the house. The second "disconnect" feeds the barns and outbuildings.

This ie why I say it would be a 400 amp service.

The OP can correct me If I misunderstood. Anyone else is just guessing.

[clare]

It's not the ""average" power that matters here, it is the "peak" power. If you draw 200 amps for 5 minutes, you better have a 200 amp service - and you might only have a bill for 6kwh that month. (a $9.00 consumption charge over and above the distribution and service fees)

I went to replace my panel last month and would have liked to put in a 200 amp panel - for resale value if nothing else - but I could only go to 125A because that's all the underground feed would handle and I didn't want to pay several thousand extra to have the feed replaced.

[clare]

If I remeber correctly he said it used to be a much larger operation with several large grain driers atc in the past - which would very likely require a full 200 amp service just for the farming operation. I know quite a few farms (100 acres) with 600 amp services on the pole. A single large silo unloader can run 20HP. (thats 20000 watts- at 240 volts thats 83 amps right there.- not counting the full load starting surge - which can be up to double - Then there is the milking machine (vacuum pump) which can be upwards of 20HP as well (usually closer to 10, but depends on the sise of the operation) PLUS the cooler, ventilation fans, milkhouse heater, feed mixer, stable cleaner, lights, etc. No, they are not all run at once, but the silo unloader, ventilation fans, milkhouse heater, milk cooler, and milking machines could all be running - along with the lights - in a large dairy operation.

[dpb]

I don't recall this poster even hinting of any of that kind of an operation...but it is possible, yes that I suppose some time in the past it was a larger operation. But the _newest_ equipment he listed is almost 60 yr old...

[Paintedcow]

That describes my farm NOW, but this was once a large farm operation with hundreds of acres. I only own a small part of the land it once was. I bought the portion with the original buildings, including the newer home and the barns, as well as a really old house that was falling down, which I demolished.

[Paintedcow]

You understand correctly what I said. Two fuse blocks with two 200A fuses in each one. That *IS* 400A service, single phase 120/240V.

One block feeds the house which has it's own 100A Main breaker.

The other block feeds the garage and the barn. Each of them have their own 100A main breakers. The smaller sheds are fed off the garage's or the barn's breaker boxes.

One exception, there is an old shed tapped into the triplex on a support pole between the main pole and the barn. That still has an old 60A fuse box. All I use in there are a few lights, so I see no reason to change it. I did change the boxes in both the barn and the garage, and rewired those buildings. They had fuse boxes with really crappy wiring when I moved here.

[Paintedcow]

The underground feed to my house is only rated at 100A, but there is a

100A MAIN breaker in the house. I could change those 200A fuses in the meter pole panel to 100A, (for the house). but I see no reason to do so, since the house has it's own 100A MAIN.

I never even come close to using 100A in the house, so that's all I need. The garage is my biggest draw, since I have a large stick welder, power tools, and my well pump runs off the garage too.

[tony944]

No, he has a 400 amp 240 volt single phase service, with 2 200 amp

240 volt fused disconnects - both of which can handle 200 amps of 240 volt loads. That is 200 amps line to line on each disconnect - or 400 amps line to line on the main feed.

I HOPE YOU ARE NOT ELECTRICIAN FOR HIRE WORD DUMB DOSE NOT DESCRIBES SOME OF YOU GUYS thick headed mules.

If the house has a 200 amp panel, he needs the 200 amp disconnect and OR 200 Amp. Distribution panel with circuit barkers as needed equal to 200 Amps.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

200 amo fuses on that "disconnect" WHICH IS 200 Amp. SERVICE,

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IT IS NOT 400, you do not add each wire Ampacity and total it sums, and call it 400 amp. service. And it could be 208 or 220 or 240 single phase, Voltage is irrelevant. The way you are figuring it out then tree phase would be 600 Amp. service.

- and fusing the other "disconnect" at 200 amps is no problem if he has 200 amp rated triplex feeding the outbuildings. Otherwise, the triplex to each building needs to be rated at least for the capacity of the main breaker in the building in question.

DISCLAIMER: Not an expert!!

quote: "

I believe the green wire is for your protection; not to protect against surges. If an appliance (a clothes washer, for instance) has an internal short, and you touch the metal body, you might be hurt. The green wire (safety ground) connects directly to the metal frame and 'grounds out' any short circuits. IF CONNECTED TO A GROUND.

[trader_4]

I think by now it's obvious who the thick headed mule is. Everyone here, including the OP who knows what he has, agrees it's a 400A service with two separate 200A disconnects, one serving the house, the other the garage and barn.

Do try to follow. He has that. He has another parallel 200A disconnect for the barn/garage.

And whatever you're using to post, it's very hard to decipher what's a new post, what's cited, etc. Trimming would be a good thing too.

[clare]

I have snipped all the posting except what the OP wrote explaining what he has..

I will explain exactly what he has.

He has a 400 amp single phase 240 volt service with 2 200 amp "pull-out blocks" with 2 200 amp fuses in each pull-out.

One of these "pull-out boxes" feeds the 200 amp panel in the house through a burried 4 conductor cable. The other "pull-out block" feeds the barn, garage, and other outbuildings or "sheds" They formerly fed grain driers and other power-hungry agricultural equipment which is no longer there.

The FACT that there are 2 parallell 200 amp pull-out blocks (with 4 fuses total - 2 from L1 and 2 from L2) proves it is a 400 amp service.

To meet code, if the neutral is bonded to the ground at the pole (main distribution panel) the house panel should have the green wire connected to ground at the main distribution panel, and the bonding screw on the house panel should be removed, so there is no "local" connection between neutral and ground.

Any new installations on the "farm" side need to be done the same - but what exists now is 3 wire (triplex) overhead wire - which has no ground, so the sub-panels in each outbuilding need to be bonded locally to driven ground rods.

Each outbuilding needs to have a power disconnect within sight of the distribution panel, and preferably close to the entrance/exit of the building so power to the entire building can be disconnected easily from the entrance, and the disconnect can be monitored from the panel to know the power is not being turned back on while working on the panel.

With the exception of the disconnected ground cable from the house at the pole, what he has is correct and safe.

[Tekkie®]

[e-mail] posted for all of us...

Clare, do you think this will stop this thread? It seems to have a dysfunctional life of its own.

[clare]

Won't stop the thread (likely) but at least it gets all the facts in one place and in a more-or-less organized fashion.

There will still be know-it-all know-nothings that will argue the point - - - -

[Paintedcow]

And the thread drifted away from the original question that I posted and was answered a week ago..... But this is usenet and things rarely run smoothly....

[PaxPerPoten]

Whadda u think?

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