Complexity of dyes in kitchen cabinets

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On 11/3/2010 1:39 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:
f Norwest Banks when

A different kettle of fish though, eh? ... a Lender has an entire legal pallette of liens that a mechanic/contractor/materialman (unless I'm missing something in the Texas Property Code) does not have access to, from Deeds of Trust, to the liens of which you speak?
Then again, as every lawyer who I've tried to talk into suing a bank for me has noted: In law school, if the question involves a bank, the answer is automatically "the bank wins".
I can't get away with that. :)

And it's a lawyer's game and you can't win, even if you prevail.
IME, and it often happens that, the more contractual diarrhea used in trying to protect yourself against all eventualities, the more you expose your intent to adverse interpretation in a court of law.
I've learned to do everything I can to keep it simple, or I walk away ... Bill Clinton's meaning of "is", notwithstanding.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
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"Swingman" wrote:

-------------------------------- Mention Youngstown, Ohio and Ed Debartolo in the same breath, you will get a broad range of wry smiles about tales not told.
Some say those tales might include the "Family".
Had a customer who did some crane work on a shopping center project DeBartolo was developing.
When the outstanding invoices hit $750K, guy dropped the crane across the entrance at the start of the day and shut the job site down.
Story is guy has his $750K by noon and construction resumed.
Would I liked to have been a fly on the wall?
What do you think?
Lew
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I must confess that I don't remember the exact name of the lien type that was filed. In the case of the Lender action, Norwest filed a lien equal to the amount of construction as a second position to the lot or land loan.
In some cases, the lot/land equity was actually deeded over to Norwest as a down payment in lieu of cash. These transactions were handled differently since Norwest held title to the real estate itself, and it held the only position of interest against the real estate. With that in mind, the Norwest would pay off the outstanding balance of a lot/ land, assuming the superior position. The master lien would be modified (increased) as the construction continued until finished.
Since Norwest's loan was not on a house, they had to file the lien as a lien against real property with proposed improvements (as you know). At the end of the process we took the clear title and flipped the construction loan including the lot and recast it as a permanent "real estate" loan.
I had a few of my remodeling cohorts that (when they were still in business... this economy finished them off) that filed a M&W lien against a project before it started. Only prudent when you are doing $80 - $250K additions.
Their liens were not considered valid for the full amount of the project as while **in process** they had not performed the full amount of work. The strategy there was to have the lien in place to protect their position in the line of creditors, and if/when it went to court the judge would modify the lien to reflect actual monies owed.
Texas real estate law is set up to protect the homeowner and in many ways leaves everyone else (except the banks) out in the cold. Since only the superior lien holder can force foreclosure, and only for the reason of non-payment (not only the note, but insurance and taxes if collected by them in escrow) a contractor that is in second position has little power.
You can file all the liens you want and they will just sit in the system. No harm will come to the deadbeat client.
That is why the banks and lenders have entire legal firms that specialize in Texas real estate law constantly review, update, and implement new documentation and strategies.

Truer word were never spoken. The banks know the legal system/real estate law so well that they can create a Gordian knot that can't be unraveled by anyone but them. And one little hickey in your paperwork... on small mistake... it can render your paperwork invalid in some instances.

Can I get an AMEN on that one, brother? Not possible. Even if you "win", you are lucky to be made whole, and if you are made whole, how much goes to your attorney? And there is a lot of back and forth on how much of your attorney's fee are "reasonable" and how much you should allow as a normal cost of doing business for collections.

I agree. With plethora of unrealistic legal shows on TV, many now think they are junior lawyers. I hear things like "I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the language you used here" and other such drivel. Some don't even understand what they are reading in the first place. I think some believe it is a game, and the more aspects you provide for them to consider, the more challenged they feel.

We are certainly on the same path. I only do work for one attorney, and he is such a great guy you would never know he was one. Others are too argumentative, and LOVE to split hairs and interpret every aspect of a project or repair. My current contract has the basic legal caveats and verbiage in it, and no more. It is a simple two page contract, with no tiny writing on it.
While this may sound arrogant, it isn't. I look at my meeting with my proposed client as a mutual interview. I want to see if we are a good fit for each other. If I smell trouble or there is an overly aggressive know-it-all in the mix, I simply tell them "I don't think we can help you" and leave.
Life is too short. The legal system is a long and winding road with no end. Who needs the aggravation?
Robert
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Where there is ambiguity in a contract, the ambiguity must be resolved against the interest of the author of the contract.
Apprectiated this thread -- as a contractor and as an occasional lurker.
Ken in Calgary.
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5. CHANGES TO THE PROJECT, CONTRACT PRICE OR CONTRACT TIME
A Change Order is a written order prepared by the Contractor and signed by the Owner and Contractor, issued after execution of the Contract, authorizing a change in the Project, Contract Price or the Contract Time. The Project, Contract Price and the Contract Time may be modified only by a Change Order. Any change or proposed change submitted to the Owner for review and signature must be reviewed and finalized within a reasonable period of time.
Any changes not required by unforeseen conditions or beyond the control of the Owner shall be priced according to the Contractor's normal pricing policy, and shall include an administrative charge of $100. All Change Orders shall be priced prior to presentation to the Owner. No portion of the Project shall be suspended or delayed in contemplation of a proposed Change Order. The Owner shall make payment in full upon his signing of the Change Order.
If the Contractor is delayed at any time in the progress of the Project by any act or neglect of the Owner, his agents, or by any separate contractor employed by the Owner, or by changes ordered in the Project, or by labor disputes, fire, unusual delay in transportation, adverse weather not reasonably anticipated, unavoidable casualties, or any causes beyond the Contractor's control, or by delay authorized by the Owner pending mediation, then the Contract Time shall be extended by Change Order for such reasonable time as the Owner and the Contractor determine.
Any supplemental design work requested by the Owner shall be performed at a rate of $150./hour.
The Contractor does not anticipate any Change Order extras at the time of Contract signing, and will not request any Change Order extras, except for Owner requests, latent and concealed conditions, and required construction differing materially from the Contract.
And on a different topic, but still an all time favorite contract clauses:
The Owner shall not bring other contractors, onto the job during the course of the Project. If the Owner desires to have additional work performed by the subcontractor's hired by the Contractor within one year of Project completion, the Contractor's written authorization must be received prior to the start of the additional work.
R
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Excellent example Robert!
But in my case, I'm the one wanting to add the ceiling fan, we were still waiting to see of our proposed price for the house would be accepted by the builder. Admittedly there are costs of adding to the plans and cost of labor and materials but nothing in the way of actual building the house had taken place yet.
Additionally the original prices for the ceiling fans were $150 each. To add the price of the extra fan was $150 + $175 for blocking and wiring+ $350 admin.
I was perfectly willing to pay the whole sum but the builder's salesman intervened before presenting me with those figures and "he" got the builder to waive the $350 admin fee.
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But Leon, that's all the difference in the world. If a shovel hasn't been turned, to me, you are still in the negotiating aspect. No other schedules have been disrupted or modified, no materials need to be verified as to compatibility, or any of that other stuff.
You are doing what you need to do now, not while in process. Completely different from my example. I wouldn't charge an admin fee upfront while we were still wrangling over prices since I could see for myself what it would cost to make a change, and charge just that much. After all, you want to get the job, right?
It may have been, (Lordy... it's my sales background....) that the "waiving of the fee" was a good sales tactic concocted by the sales rep.
Or, it may have just been common sense on their part.
I was reflecting on the folks that want to change horses after the race has started.
Robert
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I suspect a 'cookie-cutter' developer, with the admin fee designed to cover the costs of riding herd on the 'deviation' from the "standard plan". In that scenario, there is a 'production' issue of "pay attention, this is *DIFFERENT* on _this_ job". if there were a a whole group of modifications bundled to gether, a single instance of the admin fee makes sense. If there was _only_ the -one- change that was something other than a selection between 'standard' options, it make sense to waive the fee.
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On 11/2/10 4:23 AM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

I had someone give me that line before. I smiled and said, "Oh that's fine, I fix their mistakes all the time, but I still charge the same, so you can pay both of us, or just me."
--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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I am never a smart ass to my clients. I need and want as much business as I can handle (difference between a part time and full time?), plus I like to stay in control of the situation.
My response to them is: "Wow... that's a great price! If you are sure they can do it for that price, I would wait until we are finished and then call them right away! They must have some special deal cut with someone because of their volume".
And if they call me later, I don't gloat. I am sorry they didn't get what they wanted, sorry they were screwed, and sorry they wasted their time. I give them a chance to save face. I tell them there is a small upcharge if we have left the job, and that's that.
I don't ever bad mouth the other contractor(s) either. Unless the work is pitifully bad, I even try to make excuses for them like "well, I guess when you try to do that much volume you can't supervise every job", and "even the best contractors have bad days".
If they are pissed off enough at the other guy, they will double their attacks on them in front of me while my hands stay clean.
I don't get any satisfaction or remuneration out of being right. I do make money (think of The Walrus and The Carpenter here) when I am the good guy and pick up the pieces for my clients, leaving their dignity intact.
I admit though, I DO love to hear, "damnit Robert, something told me we should have let you handle this".
Robert
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wrote:

That is sooooo hard sometimes.

"Well, the installer they had 3 installers ago, last month, he did an okay job, but I have NO idea who they have doing the installs now."

That all depends on how it went and the kind of client. Sometimes I do gloat. I am weak. Can't help myself. " What did I tell you?" sometimes just slips out. Maybe once a year..... If they ridiculed MY price, I WILL gloat.

I'm there on that one. No need to butcher the competition, many will do that themselves...the good ones, well, they don't deserve to be butchered. I have never minded losing a gig to a credible opponent. Amazing how close our quotes can be. Once, on a $14,000 job we were 100 bucks apart. For that reason, I like some of the European quote systems. Get 3 quotes TELL them you're getting 3. Toss high and low. Gets rid of gougers and low-ballers.

Me neither.

How could you not?
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"Robatoy" wrote:

quotes TELL them you're getting 3. Toss high and low. Gets rid of gougers and low-ballers.
-------------------------------- Once had a buyer who indicated he would put a job out to bid and the low 5 bidders got to rebid.
This was a 6 digit job that was low balled going in.
There was nothing left for another bid; however, buyer was told that he was truly serious, he would have gotten the "real" price.
Good thing buyer didn't follow up, but it was fun watching buyer's expression as the blood rushed to the face.
Lew
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I'll give a contractor the opportunity to re-bid, _when_ it is obvious they have 'missed something' on the submission. Doesn't happen very often, but I do want 'apples-to-apples' comparison of what they believe is needed. Usually, when I got something 'out-of-line' low, it was that bidder wasn't including something that the others -were-. Discussion would usually establish that they didn't believe that -that- item needed work/replacement, whereupon I'd ask for a quote as an 'add-on' in case I wanted it done 'anyway'.
Had a really funny situation in this respect a number of years ago -- Needed to replace 'a furnace' in the house, it had failed during an extremely cold spell in the winter. Now, as it happened, the house had two complete heating/cooling systems, one each for two separate 'zones' (an artifact of a _major_ add-on, some years previous).
Did have to make it clear to the companies that this was _NOT_ an 'emergency' situation, that we were soliciting competing bids, _and_ that they could/should schedule this job _after_ any 'emergency' calls. (We figured out, 'after the fact', that the furnace in question had probably died a good two weeks before we placed the initial service call. Took a while to 'penetrate consciousness' that the 'other furnace' was running almost constantly.)
Got quotes from several reputable firms, sat down to review them, and 'make a decision' -- ended up calling *all* the bidders back and asking "why are quoting a unit over 2-1/2 times the size of the one that is being replaced?"" None of the estimators had noticed the 'other furnace' on the other side of the basement, _or_ checked the 'plate' on the dead unit. "Assumed" it did the whole house, and sized by eyeball, accordingly. (The estimators were =good=, the units they quoted were very close to the combined capacity of both the existing units.)
Second round of bids came in with _much_ lower numbers. <grin>
Turned out they _couldn't_ quote the 'same size 'unit as the one being replaced -- *nobody* made one that _small_ any more -- but could get something rated only about 20% larger.
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sure they can do it for that price, I would wait until we are finished and then call them right away! They must have some special deal cut with someone because of their volume". -------------------------------------- Robert, you silver tongued devil you.
Lew
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On 11/2/10 4:38 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

That's a great attitude and practice that I'm sure has and will serve you well.
BTW, most of my clients are my friends and became friends sort of because we're all smart asses. If I get all serious on them, that's when they think I'm trying to rip them off. :-)
--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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On 11/1/2010 12:35 AM, Sam Takoy wrote:

I was a little shocked at the 20K.
Assuming this is very high end work, then finishing the piece is no easy task. The dyes require somewhat more care and it may be that the finish is complex in itself, that can depend on detailing in the construction and what kind of relief is in the work. This may cover time in getting the finish just right, and not wanting to be bothered with it. It may be a price designed to get you to say no.
You do appear to be paying a lot all around.
I'm not familiar with the cabinet trade, so I'm just postulating what hasn't been said, but I think should. Someone with more experience should know.
Jeff

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