We are trying to pick out a range for the kitchen of our new home so that we can design the kitchen around it. We have been looking at the Thermador and DCS line of 36" dual-fuel ranges, but balk at spending nearly seven thousand dollars on it with the options we'd like.
Now I'm leaning toward a commercial gas-only unit, which should save me a few thousand, but I've been told that the requirements for a commercial unit installation are quite different from a unit designed for home use. What are they, has anyone done it, and does it void the warranty? I have plenty of experience *using* commercial-grade appliances, but zero experience in installation and building/code requirements.
I suppose I should be asking this question relative to the other appliances we would like to have in-kitchen - namely, all commercial products. Specifically, a fast-cycle commercial dishwasher, under-counter installation, and a remote compressor refrigerator/freezer unit. The house is in the planning stages now, and we are concentrating our design of the main floor around the kitchen. The cabinets will all be full custom to accommodate our current and anticipated future cookware and dishes, and we are gadget freaks as well. So, it is only fitting that we pick out the appliances first and design the remainder of the kitchen around them. Any suggestions, folks that have commercial units in your house, what do you like?
Give a call to the town/city bldg dep't for specific requirements. I would expect the high heat output capacity may require ducted hood w/fire suppression.
Find out what gas line pressure is needed and have someone calculate the pipe size req'd and ask the utility if the meter can supply the load.
You may want to ask on rec.food.equipment This had been discussed there often in the past so even a google search may find the proper answer. Yes, it can be done
IIRC, you need a larger gas line than most ranges, clearance from cabinets, ventilation, perhaps fire extinguisher built in the hood like the restaurants have. I would think the manufacturer has at least some basic information but check your local codes, of course. Ed snipped-for-privacy@snet.net
We own four restaurants. We would never put such a big expensive thing in our house as a true restaurant stove or grill, although we do have a somewhat commercial-looking home kitchen (stainless appliances, with restaurant type tile floors).
You didn't ask, so I'm not presuming to tell you that you shouldn't, but it will sure be an expensive hobby. In addition to purchase price, hoods, maybe fire suppression, gas supply, there is also operating cost. These units are intended for high load long cycle use (cooking many meals all night long). It sure must be expensive per plate to fire them up for one family's meal! Also, there is an added HVAC operating cost which is related to cooling (or heating) all the makeup air that is needed to replace the high air volumes that need to be blown out the exhaust to keep the stove area cool and the products of combustion removed.
Whatever floats your boat, as long as you don't mind paying.
Hey Jon, I was watching HGTV over the weekend and one of the discussions was the use of commercial ranges in a residence. The BTU's are a lot higher than the residential demands, so the larger gas line is a must. Since the units are hotter than others, additional clearance is required from adjacent cabinetry, a *very efficient* exhaust hood to remove the excessive heat, etc.
However . . .
There are two types of "commercial" gas ranges available for residential useage. One is strictly commercial (with all the ups and downs described above.) The other is called a "Pro" line - has all the appearances of the commercial line (stainless, legs, etc.) but only draws approximately the same BTU's as the residential unit. The burners are more efficient and the insulation on the oven is of a higher grade. You might want to to go
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and have a look. If I can remember the show, I'll bump you back. Good luck with the new place . . .
I wouldn't touch any of the commercial ranges for reasons mentioned by other people that post here.
BUT
Given the chance, especially since I'm in the HVAC/R business, I'd install remote condensing units in a heartbeat if my bride would let me. Get the heat and noise outside. And while I was at it, I'd install a absorption type cooling system so I'd have a small cooling tower. That way, I'd have water cooled condensers instead of air cooled.
I'd cost about 3X what a 'normal' system would and I'd never be able to sell the house because I'd be the only one that could work on it.....
This is the kind of stuff I need to read. Right now, we have a moderate consumer-grade of appliances, a white kitchen, and we are leaning toward something more commercial-appearing, as well as higher capacity. The current stove is a nice GE Spectra model with a flat glass top (electric), but we want gas, and a higher capacity (i.e. more pots). The hood, a Broan, top-of-the-line, but still, a higher capacity model would be nice. We need a huge refrigerator, we have two right now for a large and growing family, one small one in the basement and a 17 cubic foot model in the kitchen. The dishwasher, as has been mentioned in a previous thread, is a KitchenAid and it's a total piece of trash.
So maybe, what I should be leaning toward is a 5 or six burner cooktop, a smaller wall oven, a large refrigerator/freezer (my wife will not live without an ice dispenser in the door) and the best dishwasher I can find. My A-number-one, primary concern is reliability. Features aren't worth shit when the thing is broken. Our cooking leans a lot toward stovetop work anyway, a lot of stirfrys and sauces, and a significant amount of outdoor barbecue and grilling, even in the winter. The oven gets used once or twice a week at most.
Thanks all for the input, it will make our decisions that much easier. BTW, how is the tile in the kitchen? What did you use?
That brings me to another question, if you don't mind:
The house will be a traditional timber frame with stress-skin panels, sitting on a basement foundation made of insulating concrete forms and poured concrete. I am putting radiant floor heat in the basement floor and using Warmboard panels (or something similar) in the first floor. The second floor will be plumbed for radiant panels or baseboard but not installed unless we find that the area gets too cold.
My difficulty lies with cooling. I would like to centrally cool the house, but am finding it very difficult to find a system that will work in a timberframe. I have looked at mini-splits (Mitsubishi) and Unico/SpacePak systems, but I guess I need some more opinions and feedback. You mention water-cooled condensing units, a cooling tower. Without getting ridiculously pricey, can this be done effectively in a residence? Also, what about makeup and excahange air for a tight house? How is this done?
I have no experience with the things, but the dual-use heating/cooling radiator systems shown here:
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Looked really nifty to me. Fan driven radiators, which you run, hot/cold water through according to the season, with boiler/chiller somewhere else, with both built-in and free-standing units.
I don't know much about timber frame construction.
Responses in line.....
And if I do? You owe me an adult beverage for payment.....
There ain't much better than Warmboard, IMHO. I'd go ahead and put the radiant in the upstairs now. Those warm floors don't warm the upstairs well.
In a word, no. You have a choice. Quiet, even and expensive or noisy, drafty and 'inexpensive.' Given an open checkbook, I'd put in a water chiller and fan coil units for every room. They'd be near the ceiling and blow straight out into the room. The hall ceilings would be the standard height and the rooms would be 10 or 12 feet.
That's a real can of worms. There are air exchange units (also called heat recovery ventilators [HRV's] or energy recovery ventilators[ERV's]) out there and they all do the job, but they aren't cheap. I have heard of one state that now requires these in every new house. That's mainly because the new houses are so tight, there is no natural respiration. That makes the houses more energy efficient, but can also lead to mold and mildew growth.
Well, I wouldn't touch anything but a commercial range despite (or because of) the reasons mentioned here and others. A few months ago I replaced my 50+ year old commercial Garland (6 burner, 3 burner salamander (broiler), 2' * 2' griddle, 2 large ovens) with two GE Spectra gas home ranges. What a mistake! If I could relive the last couple of months as far as the kitchen is concerned I would and I'd keep the 50+ year old in preference to any domestic range.
Same gas line (3/4), same meter, same range hood (custom SS exhausted outside). Oh yeah and maybe 1/4 clearance to cabinets on the side and no heat problem (on the Garland) but then I don't worry about codes too much.
What I didn't realize, not having cooked on a domestic range for over
20 years, is how anemic the burners are. Probably nanny trying to stop us burning ourselves. How the vast mass of people cook with the current domestic ranges is beyond me. Water takes double the time to boil, searing anything--well, forget about it, and the broilers--first time I used them I checked to see if they were really lit they took so long. And the burners are the wrong shape; the flames should be concentrated into the center. Most pans do a good job of spreading the heat so why do the domestic ranges make it nearly impossible to heat a small diameter pan (such as one used to melt butter)? Doing (say) four large fish fillets in two 12 inch frypans is also very difficult because of the back to front measure on the domestic models--all of them. Be careful of Maytag especially; it has an overhanging lip at the back which restricts the pans even more. Oh yeah and let's not forget the exhaust for the ovens. At least in the Garland there were chimneys venting all that grease up into the hood. On the Spectra the ovens vent over the timer panel. What idiot...oh, never mind.
You'd think at least the current domestic model would be easy to clean, wouldn't you? After all that's the main reason we changed. Not on your Nelly! The first thing you notice in the fine print in the user manual is that you can't put any of the parts (burner tops, pans, grilles) in the dishwasher. Uh? Wha.... Oh well they must be easy to clean by hand, eh? If you believe that there's a bridge for sale in my neck of the woods. Basically you can consider the burners as disposable--after a couple of years they'll be so crudded up that you have to buy new ones.
Oh and to the guy who thinks you don't need all that heat. If you boil water you transfer BTU's from the combustion source to the water It doesn't matter if you transfer 60,000 BTU's in one minute or 1,000 BTU's in 60 minutes. Sorry that's wrong. It's more efficient (and hence cheaper) to transfer them all at once because of the heat losses from the top. Again a commercial range will do better. Then there's the question of searing steak and other meats under the broiler/salamander. Frankly you can't do it on the domestic version; it's just not hot enough.
Only the ovens seem to be equivalent to the Garland and that's not saying much. One hour at 325 is the same on either range.
My wife, also chastened by the entire horrible experience, says that the ideal, taking some level of cost to account, would be two domestic wall ovens separate and a commercial 6 burner range with nothing less than 20,000 BTU burners--oh, yeah maybe one low heat simmer burner of about 5000 BTU with a flame like a propane torch (i.e. centered)--and an eye level salamander with at least 60,000 BTU, and maybe a big oven for the monster turkey once a year. We saw a Vulcan on the Bowery like this minus the salamander for $875 unfortunately a week after we installed the Spectra's. Add a salamander for four or five hundred and we're not that far away from the $1200 the two Spectra's cost us.
there are a couple of brands that are made for non commercial use that are pretty good, viking, dacor and thermidor all come close to commercial grade units without the hassles of upgrading the rest of your home to install
Has anyone else noticed how anemic outdoor grills are? The only proper way to cook a steak is on a very hot grill, yet the largest burner I've seen recently is only 40,000 BTUs.
Wasn't that long ago I had a 44,000 BTU unit, but I couldn't find one of those anywhere recently.
I solved that problem a year ago by getting a Kamado ceramic barbecue (kamado.com, if you want to look at them). Mine has a removable gas option which I really only use for starting the charcoal, but I can get this critter up to well over 700 degrees to quickly sear a steak. I also use it for cooking that "monster turkey" ( I did a 20 lb bird last Thanksgiving) and most anything else you can put in an oven. I've avoided breads and pizza so far (and who wants to eat smoke flavored cookies?) but any meats or foods that you would either grill, bake, broil, roast or smoke are fair game. I can also hold the temp at 200 degrees for an indefinite period of time, sometimes upwards of 20-24 hours, for the occasional carolina-style pulled pork or beef brisket.
I've also got a twin burner outdoor gas stove, I forget the burner output but it's something like 30,000 btu per burner. I use that with a wok ring for stirfry and for really large pots that the kitchen stove can't handle.
Friend went thru trying to use a commercial cooktop (gas) in the house he was building. Particularly, he want at least one high BTU burner. Two things I recall from his story was it required a larger gas feed, which required additional hassles on the permit (and probably other aspects), and a overhead fire extinguisher. All in all, he decided the extra hassle and cost weren't worth it. He found a Thermador (I think) cooktop that has a high BTU burner and works reasonably well apparently. It would seem that they have a lot more choices in the "semi-pro" appliance lines now days than back then ('bout 15 years ago) so you may want to consider "compromising" at that (semi-pro) level rather than going to commercial stuff.
FWIW, get an electric oven(s) and gas cooktop. Electric ovens achieve a more even level of heat (though gas may nowdays be comparable?).
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