Cold water inlet temperature

Only because I don't fancy throttling stop valves. Most of mine are gate valves. There was no other word that came mind. Could have called it "extreme." Anyway, you did it. No issue with turning the heat down. Have mine at about 130F all the time. BTW, you could just limit how much you open the faucets to get the same effect. But you'd have to remember to do it.

I've replaced a few, but the always failed during mild weather. Don't doubt that there are more failures in the winter though.

The toilet shouldn't be affected, unless you throttled the main valve. I assumed you just throttled in heater inlet.

No, it was a tempering tank. Same capacity, but plain uninsulated tank. A couple years ago I replaced the tank in this house, and didn't use an expansion tank. Hell no, I didn't have it inspected. Chicago code may require expansion tanks for new construction. Not sure. I didn't notice any in the box store where I bought the water heater.

Yabbut, keeping the temp down to "acceptable" is normal energy conservation (money), like turning off lights.

If you can live with it in the winter, summer is a breeze. Why not just leave the temp turned down?

Around here, by the time a WH fails, it's best to replace it anyway, as it's all scaled up and inefficient. Cycle of life.

I saw exactly one brief new clip about that. It was a stupid move.

I went and looked at some Youtube clips. I found it a contrived, cartoonish and forgettble flick. Probably because of the air tank, which is ridiculous. Maybe I was in the wrong mood when I watched it. Might watch it again. Mostly remembered Josh Brolin's performance, as I was unfamiliar with him. I'm waaay behind on movies. I was more in synch with Siskel.

Reply to
Vic Smith
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I don't see how they could be unaware. They were given a petition with

27,000 signatures saying not to kill the giraffe. The other thing I don't see anyone talking much about is if they were so concerned about inbreeding, they could have neutered the animal. The zoo did have some lame excuse about that, saying that if you anesthetize a giraffe, it may fall down and break it's neck. Seems the *chance* of that happening is a hell of a lot better than just killing it. This is about as dumb as it gets. It's just a bunch of eggheads insistant on following the rules they've made up. When you have responsible zoos in other countries willing to take the animal, eg England, no excuse for what they did.

IMO, until those responsible are fired, everyone should boycott the zoo and keep the pressure up.

Reply to
trader4

Everyone's entitled to their preferences. I don't like torquing valves that have no backup. I also don't like tripping breakers deliberately but I concede that it can be helpful in situations. I really don't understand why some people have taken exception to my wanting to try protect my creaky old water heater from a very unusual weather situation that clearly has seriously negative effects on plumbing.

Yeah, remember. That'll work. NOT (-: I can't remember if I've taken a pill 30 seconds later. So that's not a workable option.

At least that is what the plumber said. My point is that this is a very unusual winter and the inlet water is probably colder than it's ever been. You've owned lots of cars. Tell me what happens when you take a car that's logged 100K miles at no greater than 3100RPM and you redline it? That's when I first learned about pistons having "carbon ridges."

Actually, I throttled the main valve because I didn't want to create an unequal pressure differential. Lowering the pressure at the main shut off means that the balance of the hot and cold water valves I have set at the washing machine will stay the same. I also did it that way because the main shut off valve has an electric backup, and I agree with your belief not to mess with a valve that has no backup unless you have to. The water heater inlet valve has no backup and is probably crusted up inside. Not a good candidate for tweaking.

Well, sounds like someone was concerned with the inlet temperature at some point. (-: Does your water it look anything like this - sounds ancient!

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(-;

It's something I'll have to look into. I don't have one now and am not sure why one is needed. I forgot to ask the plumber about it. That damn memory thing again!

Agreed. We had jacked up the heat when we had company because the third person to shower didn't get the "premium" hot water. You just reminded me to add another HomeVision temperature probe to the hot water outlet pipe. Thanks!.

Indeed. Why not? We may boost it again when company comes but it seems perfectly livable where it is now, which is 125F or maybe less. The truth is that until my neighbor's heater failed, I didn't even think about the very cold inlet water and the possibility that might trigger a failure.

It was more than that, it was a stupid ballet. One move after the other got them in deeper and deeper. I suspect even now the director doesn't think anything noteworthy occurred. It's all over Google News along with some pretty gruesome pictures. Little 2 year old Marius being "parted out" to the lions in big, recognizable giraffe chunks. While I am generally pro-science, sometimes scientists can get themselves locked deep within a bubble that impairs their thinking.

No one ever said it would work! There were several long threads about how unlikely it was that those locked lock cylinders would punch out in the movie groups. I didn't realize James Brolin had been killed until I hit rewind.

I thought the best part was when his wife tells the killer "The coin ain't got nothing to do with it - it's all you" when he offers her the chance to win back her life with a coin flip. I had a kid working for me at the time who thought the movie was the finest ever made, full of deep meaning and philosophical truth. I'm not sure but I sure have discussed to it death. I would NOT have taken the water back to the bandido, although it probably didn't matter much anyway because the money bag was bugged.

Me too. Just remember the guy with the tank is supposed to be (I am told) the persona of an uncaring and random Death, one who can't be bargained with unless He chooses to offer you a wager. It at least makes a *little* sense from the perspective. My wife thinks the villian was cartoonish and along the lines of the shark with the "candygram" that used to be on early episodes of SNL.

Yeah, but Ebert was perversely reliable. If he *liked* something I knew I wouldn't. (-:

Reply to
Robert Green

I didn't notice anybody take exception. You're too sensitive,

You'll actually have a "metal" ridge there. At least I did on the 352 I rebuilt. Had to rent a ridge reamer.

No, just a steel tank. I really think the purpose of that tank was to increase the recovery time of the heater, and not to relieve thermal stress.

That's a circus I missed.

I went to the "art" theater when I worked downtown based on his "four star" reviews a couple times. One flick was mediocre, the second atrocious. ..I looked and found one. "The Grey Fox." He gave 3 1/2 stars. I found that one mediocre. The other was a subtitled French flick. After those two Siskel had to agree with him before I considered it.

Reply to
Vic Smith

pressure tanks are installed to protect water heaters and prevent pressure release valves opening when water mains have a check valve so water from sa y a swimming pool being filled cant siphon back in the mains and add contam inated water to the main in case of a water main break......

Reply to
bob haller

I do beleve in common sense actions to protect homes.

but all this effort to protect a old water heater might be over kill...

if its that old its probably best to just replace it before failure.

of course I tend to replace car batteries befor they leave me stranded, and old water heaters before they leak......

in both cases its better to replace when cnvenient for me, rater than waiting for a big leak or getting stranded when in zero weater a vehicle wouldnt start..

incidently I discovered replacing car batteries at 4 years old helps prevent alternator failures.

but one can spend so much time and effort trying to get the longest life out of everything its just not worth the effort..

Reply to
bob haller

"All this effort?" I turned the main shut off valve less than half a turn. Then I turned the water heater temp control less than 30 degrees. Why do people assume there's all this effort involved? I have to wonder.

I didn't have to eat my sled dogs or ponies on the perilous journey to the basement because I ran out of food like Captain Scott:

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Cutting back on both the operating temperature and overall water pressure took all of one minute. Jeez. Where's all the effort some people seem to believe is involved in trying to protect an old water heater from some very unusual weather conditions? To me it's just elementary to try to compensate for conditions that the water heater has never before faced over its entire service life and will never likely face again.

Just remember how many people in authority poo-pooed the engineers that recommended that Challenger's flight be postponed until the very rare cold snap had ended. Extreme cold weather has consequences. In NASA's case, fatal ones.

Trying to reduce the effect the extreme cold might have on an old water heater seems to me to be simply prudent behavior, especially since the steps I took were so damn easy. Twisting a valve and a dial both less than 1/2 a turn. What is it that Trader says?

"Good grief!" (-:

Reply to
Robert Green

But I don't have a swimming pool! And I obviously don't have a check valve on the water line coming into the house because the recent water main break completely drained the house water lines. That wouldn't have happened with a check valve in place.

I expect I'll have to call the county inspector to find out why the expansion tanks are now required by code.

Reply to
Robert Green

Agreed. I probably should have said "unconcerned" - they had to be aware, they just didn't care.

My wife got a kick of your statement that basically says "We needed to kill it to keep it from being hurt." How much worse can you be hurt than being killed? Excuses don't get much lamer than that.

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Yep. They certainly did not come across well during this incident. And they kept insisting that the rules demanded the death of this young giraffe, Marius. Why name him if you're intent on killing him? Just makes it that much more gruesome, IMHO.

There were a number of places that came forward to no avail. It sure seems to the untrained eye that they wanted that giraffe dead in the worst way and worked around every possible chance to save his life. I wouldn't be surprised if some angry Dane chops up the zoo director and feeds HIM to the lions, all the time saying "But it's Nature's way!"

A very long time ago my driving ed instructor said "When I showed films of gruesome car wrecks with people parts lying on the roadway to try to get them to slow down when driving, the kids yawned. But when they saw a film of an accident where a cattle truck was hit by another truck and wounded cattle were all over the highway, the kids starting screaming and wailing and were overcome with grief." Dismembered humans didn't affect them anywhere near as much as dismembered animals. I think the Copenhagen zoo director is in the process of making a similar discovery about human nature.

I suspect they will. I can't see the director keeping his job, but stranger things have happened. Perhaps it will result in the zoo association rewriting their rulebook about how to deal with "excess animals."

Reply to
Robert Green

I wait until a tank breaks. The tank will just leak down into the floor drain. A bad battery shows up in the winter. Slow crank. Last one I bought lasted at least 6 years. Car broke down first, then my son put it in his car. Water heater was here when I bought the house, then it lasted

15 more years. I have put in a couple alternators, but don't think it was battery-related. Batteries tested okay. GM cars don't have long lasting alts.
Reply to
Vic Smith

Yep. But they don't have them in my location.

Reply to
Vic Smith

I disagree. Dad was a materials science engineer for the Navy and spent lots of time deliberately stressing equipment to determine its failure point. Thermal stress testing is an integral part of manufacturing. Virtually every device I know of has specified high and low temperatures of operation listed in the manual. That's because so many things behave differently in the extreme cold (plastic gets brittle, batteries fail) or heat (plastic becomes soft and batteries boil over) than they do at normal room temperatures.

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Will give you some idea how much study is devoted to the topic. It's a whole separate branch of mechanical engineering AND materials science.

Water heater tanks expand and contract as the internal temperature changes and each expansion causes a slight degree of fatigue on the metal. The greater the difference between the tank interior temperature and the inlet water temperature, the greater the stress on the materials involved. Put on some goggles. Go take a plain glass bottle, fill it with boiling water and plunge it into 41F water. That concludes today's demonstration of thermal stress. (-:

Am I being overly cautious? Maybe. But with a water main breaking on the street in the same week my neighbor's water heater failed, I've got a right to be a little worried.

And that temperature difference results in increased mechanical stress on the elements as well because they are contracting and expanding more than then do with warmer inlet water. It's not just the number of extra cycles, it's the exposure to far greater cold than usual. The greater the delta, the more mechanical stress on the elements and every other component of the heater.

That's true, of course but the current weather conditions are subjecting an old tank (it's 18 years old) to stress levels not seen during its long service life. I'm perfectly comfortable with the assumption it needs to be replaced soon. But I want that to be in the warmer weather. Changing it out right now would be drastic, expensive and foolish because it's impossible to get a bargain from a plumber on parts or labor because the current demand is nearly insatiable. My neighbor had to call 10 places to find one that one do it the NEXT day and even they lied to him. It took two days.

I've got a working water heater now showing no signs of distress other than the noises it was making when I initiated a 20G fill of all hot water for the washing machine. I considered that a clue that it might be a good idea to throttle back the heat setting and the water pressure for now to reduce how drastic the change of temperature is within the tank.

It's taken hours to explain it but less than a minute to do. Despite the assurances I'm wasting my time, very little of it was actually consumed and no one, except Vic, has provided a reason (possible valve failure) why someone shouldn't reduce the temperature setting and trim the inlet flow until the weather and the inlet water temperature warms up.

Despite the surprising amount of resistance I've been reading, I am sure at least one person's already either turned down the heat or the water flow - just to be on the safe side. (-:

FWIW, just a few degrees outside of normal operating range can have drastic consequences:

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The SSN Thresher was also the victim of the cold, but in a more obtuse way:

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I would never underestimate the effects of extreme heat and cold on mechanical systems. Hell, I drove a Jag MarkX that had a terrible tendency to overheat in warm weather and the only way to stop it was to shut off the A/C, pop up the bonnet air scoop and run the heater full blast. That was usually in the middle of the hottest days in the summer. It's been my experience that cars designed outside the US don't quite operate as they should in the climate extremes of the US. It took a long time for the Japanese to understand the need for Desert Valley cooling capacity in passenger cars.

Of course, when you consider the VW Bug's absymal heating system, it might be true that some cars just didn't operate as they should *anywhere* regardless of climate. You would think with all that snow and cold, they should have built a working heater.

Speaking of snow and cold, it's 2AM in DC and it's snowing like a mother.

Reply to
Robert Green

Another sign of how dumb they are is the zoo officials are now running around saying they are shocked that they are getting death threats. Really? You get a petition with 27,000 signatures on it trying to save the life of a cute animal and you're shocked that in all those people there are some who will resort to death threats in today's world? Don't they have PETA and/or similar groups over there? And to top it off, they even made a spectacle of cutting up the dead giraffe, like they wanted to make a point and really stick it in everyone's face that they could do as they please. IMO, those idiots should not even be allowed to have pets, let alone run a zoo.

On the other side, you also have some people who are loons. I googled to see if there was a petition you could sign to get those responsible fired. Instead I found a petition with 95,000 signatures to *close* the zoo. One would think the better solution is to replace those responsible. If they actually close it, it could lead to more animals being put down, or being in worse conditions, because they may not be able to find suitable zoos to take all of them.

Reply to
trader4

Yes, I am always "making mountains out of molehills." At least that's what DadioH told me. (-:

Well, if you redline a car that has piston ridge what happens is that the pistons travel just a bit more than they ever have before and they knock into that ridge with some interesting consequences. (-: None of them good.

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We'll probably never know for sure.

I was dragged to a film called "Daughters of the Dust." My impression was that if you forced POW's to watch it, it would be considered a violation of the Geneva Convention. It was not just a hyper-chick flick, it was a black chick flick. Not to sound racist but there wasn't a second in the film that I could relate to. It was about . . . I don't think I ever knew what it was about but it certainly was a wake-up call to not to ever trust Ebert again:

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The critic Roger Ebert wrote of the use of Gullah creole, "The fact that some of the dialogue is deliberately difficult is not frustrating, but comforting; we relax like children at a family picnic, not understanding everything, but feeling at home with the expression of it."

Reply to
Robert Green

Yes. I am all for science I can even sympathize with the desire to avoid inbreeding but they did make an awful spectacle of the event. And giraffe chunks are so easily recognizable as dead giraffe because of their markings.

Many items I've read said that zoos do this all the time but most have the good sense not to "stick it in people's faces." Epic fail for Copenhagen, I guess.

They may get themselves there eventually. I can't see -the director staying in place for very much longer. But the Danes are an odd lot. A kid that worked for me spent a year there and he concluded that they are not like us in many ways. Who knows what they'll do in the long run?

I saw that too and hoped it was just a typical "ask for the moon and get what you really want" negotiating tactic meant to remove the director. I still find it remarkable how far off the zoo was in anticipating public reaction. That's the basic business sin of not knowing your customers. I read an article that talks about Amazon and how their initial book selling business was primarily meant to gather data on customers who *would* buy books on line. May not be your cup of tea but it's a fascinating story about how Amazon changed the book publishing world forever.

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Reply to
Robert Green

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