Circuit breaker and panel has to be the same brand

[W G]

I need to buy a few cicuit breaker (15A,20A and 50A) for my Siemen panel. I went to Home Depot and the salespeson got me several Homeline breakers, saying that these are compatible with Siemen.

Now I am ready to install, and I checked with Homeline technical support to verify that. What the person ttld me was that breaker and panel has to be the same brand, or home warranty/insurane will be void. The technical specifications are not exactly the same, even though they look the same.

I guess I was glad I checked. I can't find Siemens breaker from Lowes either. I am not sure what electric store to look for. The yellow page lists many stores. But they don't have Siemen's breakers.

Anyone know where to look for Siemen breakers?

Thanks!

WG

[Erickson]

I bought siemen's breakers at Lowes...my store carried them so perhaps if your's doesnt they can order them in for you.

[Curmudgeon]

I work in an HD electrical dept and we carry Siemens.

However, I would question the statement that your homeowners insurance is somehow void if you use compatible Siemens breakers in a Square D box. I believe that breakers must meet the same underwriters specs regardless of who makes them. Therefore, if Siemens breakers are physically compatible with Square D bus mounting system, they are electrically the same as those made by Square D.

[Greg]

Not really true. If Siemens submitted it's breakers to be tested in a Square D panelboard and the lab said it was acceptable they would be "classified" as suitable but the panelboard manufacturer would still say their labeling prohibited use of anyone else's breaker and the NEC would support them.

110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

This is a constant fight about "Challenger" breakers that have been submitted and passed as classified for Square D. Some inspectors respect the classification, some defer to the manufacturer's label.

I will agree the insurance issue is bullspit. The only thing it would void is a square D warranty and might not get by some anal inspectors. As far as I know Siemens has not submitted their breakers for testing in a Homeline panel so you are just assuming if it fits it is OK.

[DaveG]

on this board. Your policy is the entire contract between the insurer and the homeowner. Read it. It will specifically state what is not covered. This will vary by company. If it says that fire is covered, and does not specifically exclude issues like the one mentioned above, then coverage exists. Courts are way more sympathetic to people than they are to insurance companies, in the event they get sued for claim denials. I'd stick with the breakers specifically approved for a panel myself. Dave

[W G]

Thanks. I'll check at the other Lowes store in the area. The HomeDepot stores in the area(I checked 4) said that they used to carry that brand, but not anymore.

But Home Depot WEB site does carry that brand. So if I can't find at the Lowes, I'll order on line.

Ericks> I bought siemen's breakers at Lowes...my store carried them so perhaps if

[Chris Lewis]

According to Greg :

If the breakers are tested and approved for that configuration, manufacturer's specifications otherwise would be considered restraint-of-trade.

But you'd have to get the FTC interested.

Obviously, if the insurance company is going to try to void your insurance on that basis[+], you'd have to sue them, and that's a problem you probably won't want to set yourself up for.

[+] I've seen insurance companies refuse to follow the letter of their own contracts simply stating "you'll have to sue us".

[SQLit]

Not at all true. Cutler-Hammer makes UL listed and approved circuit breakers for SQD and other brands. God only knows why, there is not that much profit in smaller breakers. I know other manufactuers do the same thing. As long as the breaker is UL listed for the application then no worries. I know this to be true in the USA.

[DaveG]

makes on their SQD compatible breakers is one less sale that Square D would have made.

[HorneTD]

The breaker must be listed or recognized by an electrical testing laboratory for use in that panel. Recognized breakers will be packed with a list of what panels they have been tested for use in. Thomas & Bettes is one manufacturer that has recognized breakers for many manufacturers panels. The use of breakers from a different manufacturer can void your panel warranty but it has no effect on your insurance unless the breaker is not recognized for use in that panel and the mismatch was the cause of the loss. Manufacturers go to great lengths to confuse this issue so that you will buy their breakers rather than a competitors recognized substitute. If the breaker is marked or packed with a UR laboratory mark for that panel you need have no hesitation about using it.

-- Tom H

[HorneTD]

The manufacturers who use this section of the US NEC as a club to beat competitors with are playing a dangerous came of false advertisement. In order to be "included in the listing or labeling" it must be on the laboratory label or in the laboratories published list. Writing it into the instructions is inadequate you must get the testing laboratory to agree with you and they won't. The whole purpose of laboratory classification of competitors breakers is to settle the compatibility concern. If it is classified by a testing laboratory for use in that panel then you need have no concern about using it.

-- Tom H

[HorneTD]

Dave I think you are overstating the case in the other direction. If the National Electric Code has been adopted as law in that jurisdiction and the insureds disobedience of that law is the cause of the loss then the carrier can avoid payment for the loss based on the legal premise that it is an legal absurdity to insure an unlawful act. An Insurance contract is a "contract of utmost good faith". That means that both parties to the contract must scrupulously obey the law in all issues effecting the contract. That law can include the US NEC were it is adopted as law.

-- Tom H