I'm getting my furnace replaced and have some questions. How important is it for the contractor to be NATE or NADCA certified? The more expensive, big places really push these certifications. Or is this more of a sales pitch than anything?
I have 3 choices:
Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/labor warranty humidifier media filter duct cleaning (I need it) very well established company with all the fancy certifications and guarantees permits $4360
Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/2 year labor warranty humidifier media filter duct cleaning still to be added to price, probably $300-400 more very well established company with all the fancy certifications and guarantees permits $3474 (plus duct cleaning)
Rheem RGRK
10 year parts/labor humidifier media filter duct cleaning smaller company, in business for over 15 years, owner seems very competent permits $3299
Is there anything good/bad about either furnace? Comments? I know the bigger places might offer more piece of mind, but the price seems pretty steep.
But, how do I know he's not qualified? He's licensed and insured, and the company has been a member of the BBB since 1980 and has no complaints in the last 3 years, the maximum reporting period. Correction: has been in business for 26 years to be exact, not 15.
My belief is that someone doesn't necessarily have to be "certified this" and "certified that" as long as they have the proper licenses, insurance, and experience to do the work. The company obviously is able to install and repair HVAC based on it's record. I'm just speculating here. Is there anything wrong with my reasoning?
You will see the 3rd one is Rheem. I also got a quote from a Lennox dealer but wasn't terribly impressed. I just don't have time to get a quote from every brand when it takes an hour each. Rheem is highly rated according to CR.
The only thing you may be missing is any assurance on continuing education. These high efficiency furnaces have only come about in the latter half of this company's career, and are a good deal more complicated than the old stuff, and 13SEER A/C if you're doing it surely present new things to know as well. One thing the certs might potentially bring is some assurance that they are current with changes that have occurred in hte industry lately. Others can answer whether those certs actually have such continuing ed requirements.
But that said, I too am curious/dubious about the cert value. But it certainly wouldn't be a strike against someone. And frankly, if someone's name is on the business and I'm getting a 10 year warranty from them and they've been in business for 26 years, I'm worrying if they'll be around to honor that warranty, or who backs the warranty if that shop is no longer in business when I need the work? You may have this angle covered, but just wanted to toss it out there.
Nate and Nadca equal Notagotdamnthing ................Certifications, fancy trucks, fancy uniforms....fancy assed slick talking salesmen mean nothing.....
Do your own research...talk to friends, family and coworkers....people at church .... anyhow...talk to people who have had HVAC equipment serviced and installed and find out who is reliable and honest and can do you a good job.
Make sure they do a load calc on the house...make sure they get the proper permits and inspections from the city or county.....
that just goes to prove there's a sucker born every minute! You should hear the talk in private contractor groups about all the nightmarish problems these system bring with them. Do remember....those on the cutting edge (of technology) bleed alot.
As a commercial dealer, I can put in any brand I want to, and for resi its always gonna be a Rheem. I LOVE the competition putting in carriers, cuz that just means more repair work soon on the horizon.
The big places may need to charge higher since they must employ some mediocre workers due to the volume they handle (like any large company), and add in a rework fee to begin with to cover themselves. The best and worse work is done by small family own businesses. The simpler the furnace the less risk you will encounter now and in the future regardless of the choice. Talking to few customers of the big contractors is not of much help as the installation quality can vary.
Okay I'll bite. How does a bad furnace installation typically evidence iself?
The culture of "pay for good installation" is rich certainly, and perhaps it's justified. On the other hand, is this beingf overblown a bit? How much really can go wrong?
What are the top 10 things that folks have actually seen (or heard directly from someone who saw, no hypotheticals please) screwed up by prior installers, and the potential consequences of those screwups?
For the purpose of limiting the discussion, let's leave system sizing out of the equation because a) assume we're replacing an existing system that the owner would notice is either evenly/adequately heating or cooling the house or not, backed up by b) assume the homeowner has gotten several quotes and has reviewed them to see whether all bidders have quoted consistent sizes c) the folks doing the estimates are doing the sizing, and the actual installer is showing up with a given size unit already in the truck.
We have a older version of the Bryant 90 plus installed in 89' over the years its been a decent furnace, there were several problems with it mostly due to it being an early model of the super high efficiency furnaces. We have replaced the heat exchange box from it corroding from moisture buildup and bad drainage design, new model of box isn't supposed to do that. normal wear and tear has seen the blower motor replaced after 6 years, the inducer motor replaced after about 8 years, the venturies clogged up and replaced after about 12 years, after the last service call in 2002 for the venturies we started getting the repair company out for regular yearly service call in the fall to clean and check the furnace, year before last we signed a prearranged deal where they come out twice a year to check before each season fall and spring for heat and a/c and overall checkup of the system. We have a 591a model with air conditioner added at time of install. Couple things you may want to consider is the guy that normally comes out and works on our unit says that most furnaces are built by only a couple of companies, forgot who he said bryant was made by but was supposed to be reputable brand name you pay for the name when you go with courier, lennox, sears whatever. At the time of our purchase they were just coming out with the ultra efficient like 90% or higher think ours is like 85% efficient, but the super efficient ones had nothing but problems. oh some things to consider depending on type of house maybe adding a attic powered fan, we did reduced a/c usage somewhat in summer or a whole house fan, have heard nice things about those as well. If you do not get a/c with your unit you can later add on a heat pump / a/c unit, splitting your heating source to gas / electric, also heard good things about that set up depending on electical costs in your area. heat pumps work to about 40 degrees i think.
Those are fairly self explanatory. None of these folks are installing brand new HVAC systems though.
Not necessary, but hey if ya got em.... I would like the cult followers of the "good installation is more important than a brand selected" religion to give some real examples of the actual perils of a bad/rookie installation.
Nothing. Which is why b) and c) are also assumed as backups.
NATE and NADCA shows you the company stays on top of continuing education. Rheem is better than Bryant long term. However for each particular model the consumer reports suggestion was a good one.
Please understand this is a critical choice becuase you will have to live with the heating system for a long time and it will either be heaven or hell. The real trick is the evaluation of your needs based on the square footage of your home and just how well its insulated. This gives the contracor a formula to follow in order to make what they call a heat load calculation. This essentially estimates the most heat you will need during the coldest day of the heating season.
The goal is not to go to big with a unit since that will reduce the actual efficiencies of the unit and you will be using more fuel with the constant starts and stops. The goal is to have the unit on the coldest day run for 45 minutes. This is like higheway mileage vs city stop and go.
So bigger is not better. Its critical to get the right guy doing the evaluation and the install. In order to check the BBB was a good choice as is your state department of consumer protection.
Here's the inside scoop. You need to ask how long the techs have been working for the company and the length of time they have been in the business. This tells you 2 things. 1.) If the techs have been with the company a long time it shows the company is strong and is run well. If they have not it means constant turnover due to dissention in the ranks. A minimum of 5 years. 2.) An experianced tech is better then a newly minted one.
Check to see how they maintain their vehicals inside and out. If it's messy on the inside beware,
Visit their office. If the inside of the office is in chaos RUN.
Essentially what I'm suggeting is see how they run and maintain their business because thats what they will be doing with your heating system.
I would also ask for referrals of past customers and I WOULD CALL them. You can ask about installation, how clean they were, how long it took. Any problems after or durring the install. ect..
For more details on how to choose a heating system whether it runs by gas or oil you may want to visit
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Its a site that focuses on oil heated systems but a lot of the information also transfers to the gas side.
John
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you like my suggestions please visit the site and rate me if you would. Thanks
Interestingly I am getting a furnace quote from home depot today. Gas forced air, 90+. I am wondering about one speed vs 2 speed vs variable speed furnaces?
Will get quote on air but probably wait till spring for install matter of $
Having been thru credit card hell we DONT go there ever again
Leaving the orifice out of a flowrater, improperly charging the system, setting the blower speed wrong, wiring the system wrong, using the wrong amperage fuses, not installing a filter, leaving large ass gaps in sheet metal transitions, leaving ducts completely loose/unconnected, improperly adjusting a txv valve, no trap in condensate lines,installing new system and not clearing old condensate lines, tech specing correct tonnage and office gets wrong tonnage and installer puts it in anyways ie, need four tons, office gets 2 1/2 ton condenser 3 1/2 ton coil and 4 ton air handler...
On the heat side, in no particular order,
No "T" in gas line. no gasflex on gas line, manifold pressure improperly set, not converting natural gas valve to propane when required, too many elbows in flue pipe, flue pipe not installed correctly, hooking VPS hoses up in wrong place on 90% furnaces, blower motors not orientated correctly causing the supply to be the return and the return to be the supply...
I don't think a car analogy is a good one. Imagine walking into a car dealership and saying I want model X, with options Y and engine Z and all of a sudden getting interrupted by the dealer saying, sorry, you can't choose the engine, I will pick the engine for you that will maximize your gas mileage and give you barely adequate performance under your worse case load conditions (i.e., you will have to floor the gas pedal to maintain 55 mph), I don't think many consumers would be happy to hear that...
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