cheap water tank needed !

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This is Turtle.
I know i've been asking too many questions but i'm fixing up a camp on a Lake in the Swamp to use for fishing and Cook Up's for friends and it has run down a good bit and needs a little of everything.
i have a water pump system that is feed by a artesian well feeding a big tank. The water comes out of the ground through a 2" pipe just rammed in the sand about 12 feet down and then dug out around it about 2 feet on all sides and poured concrete in the hole around it and makes the water come up the pipe and go into the tank. You don't have to pump the water out of the ground for it just flow up and in the tank with nothing but just a pipe. i have timed it and measured the water flow and it is flowing at a rate of a little over 1 gallon per minute. Now I had a tank and pump hooked up to a old sheet metal tank to pump from but the tank just rusted apart and i need a new one. Yes i know the Tightwad coming out in me. i called about another sheet metal tank or a plastic tank of 200 to 300 gallons and found they cost about $270.00 to $400.00. This is just a camp and i don't live there and only use it maybe 1 or 2 day a month and need just a holding tank to hold water. If we can come up with a plain jane tank to hold the water I can have my sheet metal man make me a cover. I talk to my sheet metal man about making me a tank and he said it would run over $200.00 to make one because the metal had to be atleast a 18 ga. metal used. He could make it out of 22 ga. but it may fail because of duriablity.
So What could a fellow use as a tank that would cost less than $200.00 to use as the water tank for nothing but storing water with no pressure or holes in it for all the pipes can feed from the top and sucxk out of the top with a pipe down to the bottom of the tank. I have looked at water tank for watering cattle but they are long and narrow and the 150 gal. would be all that would fit in the pump shed which measures 85" X 85" and i need 40" on one side to have the pump and pump pressure tank in that area which i need 40" X 85" to put the pump & Pressure Tank in. So I have a space of 45" X 85" to fit the holding tank in and the highth would have to be less than 6 feet 9 inches high.
I have talked to a farm supply store near here [ 40 miles away ] and he was checking on a prefab tank made for this application but he has not back with me as to price or do they still make them. Yes I have thought about 6 Plastic oil 55 gal. or chemical drums piped together but it gets too much of a nightmare to try to put together in the area allowed.
Is there something in this world that would work in the place of a $250.00 sheet metal tank made to order or am I going to have to bite the bullet and buy a tank ?
TURTLE
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In Mexico they have cheaper plastic tanks, but that is Mexico.
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Hi Turtle,
I might just line a plywood box with some plastic sheeting, maybe the vinyl like they use for above ground swimming pools....
--
SVL



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Around here you could probably find one or two old free fiberglass boats. Cut it half and/or into some panels. Glass it together with some wood or steel for strength. Last forever

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That's 1440 gallons a day, all the time? How much do you need to store?

How big was that tank?

You might expand the 2' hole around the pipe and line it with EPDM rubber, with a hose clamp around the pipe and a concrete block compression ring at the top and a flattish dome covered with welded wire fence and EPDM over that.

A 3'x7'x4'-tall box would hold 700 gallons, with an 11'x15' folded liner; 3 walls might be reinforced shed walls. The sideways pressure at the bottom would be about 250 psf. You might screw a flat perimeter 2x4 to the plywood bottom and sides with and 4 bolted horizontal double 2x4 hoops above that (1 flat 2x4 on the short walls, sandwiched between 2 on the long walls), with some spiked mending plates to spread the bolt load and 3 single 2x4 hoops above that, and a vertical 2x4 around the top. I wouldn't go higher than 4'.

EPDM rubber would work, at about 30 cents/ft^2. Two layers of 6 mil greenhouse polyethylene film might also work, at about 5 cents/ft^2 per layer.
Nick
20 S=3.5^2*3/6'doubled 2x4 modulus (in^3) 30 F00'max fiber stress in bending (psi) 40 M=S*F'bending moment (in-lb) 50 W=8*M/84'total force on 7' 2x4 (pounds) 60 PPF=W/7'load per linear foot (lb/ft) 70 C=PPF/62.33'quadratic term 80 D1=(4+SQR(4^2-4*C))/2'depth of 1st hoop from bottom (ft) 90 W1=4-D1'height band width supported by 1st hoop (ft) 100 PRINT "1 2",12*D1 110 C=2*C'quadratic term 120 B=W1-2*D1'quadratic term 130 W2=(-B-SQR(B^2-4*C))/2'band width supported by 2nd hoop (ft) 140 D2-W1/2-W2/2'depth of 2nd hoop from bottom (ft) 150 PRINT "2 2",12*D2 160 B=W2-2*D2'quadratic term 170 W3=(-B-SQR(B^2-4*C))/2'band width supported by 3rd hoop (ft) 180 D3-W2/2-W3/2'depth of 3nd hoop from bottom (ft) 190 PRINT "3 2",12*D3 200 B=W3-2*D3'quadratic term 210 W4=(-B-SQR(B^2-4*C))/2'band width supported by 4th hoop (ft) 220 D4-W3/2-W4/2'depth of 4th hoop from bottom (ft) 230 PRINT "4 2",12*D4 240 C=C/2'quadratic term for single 2x4 250 B=W4-2*D4'quadratic term 260 W5=(-B-SQR(B^2-4*C))/2'band width supported by 5th hoop (ft) 270 D5-W4/2-W5/2'depth of 5th hoop from bottom (ft) 280 PRINT "5 1",12*D5 290 B=W5-2*D5'quadratic term 300 W6=(-B-SQR(B^2-4*C))/2'band width supported by 6th hoop (ft) 310 D6-W5/2-W6/2'depth of 6th hoop from bottom (ft) 320 PRINT "6 1",12*D6 330 PRINT "7 1",12*(D6-W6/2)/2
Hoop #2x4 depth (in) 1 2 43.58255 2 2 38.89918 3 2 33.55583 4 2 27.14029 5 1 21.33781 6 1 16.09097 7 1 6.549896
That's 13 8' 2x4s for the long walls plus 9 4' 2x4s for the short walls...
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That version would use 4 sheets of plywood and 35 8' 2x4s, about $143 with the double poly film liner. Welded wire fence on the bottom with a 2x4 hoop inside the box at the top and bottom and 26 4' vertical studs on 1' centers would lower the materials cost to $102 and reduce the labor required.
A wall might look like this, viewed in a fixed font, with a few wires across the top to hold it together:
--- | |screw eye + wire--- - - - | | film | |pp - p | |ol|2|o | |2x4|ly|x|l | |yw|4|y | | ofilm | | | op | | do | | pl | | | ly | | yf | | ... 4'
| | wi | | ol | | om | | | dp | | po | | llyfi | |2x4| y - l | | w|2|m | |wo|x|p | | |io 4|o | |rd - lyfilm... --- efencewirefence... - - -
A tank like this could be much larger, with little increase in materials cost.
Nick
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http://www.tank-depot.com/product.aspx?id 3
by the time you buy & build a wooden one & line it with plastic plus the hassle with fittings (if you penetrate the wall) you'll be money & headache ahead to just buy one
I'd go with plastic. I'd also take another lookat the used plastic 55 gal food grade drums
cheers Bob
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Sure. Then again, maybe that rating only applies for rail or truck transport.

You might wrap a drum with chicken wire.

You might arrange plastic drums in a square or hex grid and connect them with short threaded nipples through adjacent holes in the walls near the bottoms or bulkhead fittings with barb or garden hose adapters. If the drums are cylindrical, a single PVC bulkhead fitting might connect two of them.
Low-pressure ag applications use "push plumbing"--drill a smooth hole in a drum with a step bit, and push some smooth tubing into the hole.
Nick
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Burying could be bad, maintenance-wise. Indoor heat loss might be nicer.

One might say the same about water :-)

That's not clear :-)

A little? :-)
density Cm Cv kg/m^3 kJ/kg-C kJ/m^3-C
granite 2640 0.82 2165 limestone 2500 0.90 2250 marble 2600 0.80 2080 sandstone 2230 0.71 1583 water 998.2 4.186 4178

You might get the hole foamed, or forget insulation, if it's large enough. And float foamboard under EPDM or build a shallow dome for a cover.

US Patent No. 3,933,628 "Method and Apparatus for the Anaerobic Digestion of Decomposable Organic Materials," issued to inventor Frederick T. Varani of Golden, CO on Jan 20, 1976, assigned to Bio-Gas of Colorado describes a methane generator for a 100,000-cow feedlot, using 2 EPDM-rubber-lined trenches, each 700' long x 80' wide x 40' deep. They cost $0.02/gallon, including self-inflated solar covers and excavation.

Wow. Why so big? You could put a hundred tons of water in that 15' cube.

Very bad.

Omitting the rocks might help.

You might put a few coils of PT Industries (800) 44 ENDOT PBJ10041010001 1"x300'100psi NSF-certified pipe on the bottom... $59.99 from True Value hardware stores. Each coil would have 78.5 ft^2 of surface and might have 78.5x30 = 2356 Btu/h-F of thermal conductance, enough to collect 23,560 Btu/h of heat from about 236 ft^2 of solar collectors with a 10 F temp diff.
Nick
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I called True Value Hardware. They couldn't find this PBJ10041010001 plastic tubing/pipe. The plastic tubing they did have was over a buck a foot, more expensive than the 3/4" copper tubing that a local plumbing supply place could source. Home Depot and Lowe's wanted similar >1$/foot for PEX tubing.
Nick, have you ever done a test, or do you know of tests, which found a heat conductance value for copper tubing?
I'm still calling around for reasonable quotes on a shotcrete cistern. One question is how to do the top for such a cistern. If I put it under the patio, I can arrange to have a lightweight wooden deck over it, which could be supported by steel beams. I was thinking I could glue the blueboard to the underside of the steel, then glue the EPDM to the underside of the blueboard, but glue + high temperatures makes me see delamination in the future. There is also the issue of making sure that rain and whatnot drains off around the cistern and doesn't pool on top of it.
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TVH has changed their distribution system. My local store says this Endopoly pipe is only stocked in one of their California warehouses :-) PT Industries (1 800 44 ENDOT) and others also make cheaper irrigation pipe, eg $54.60 1/2"x400' and $71.60 3/4"x400' 100 psi pipes. US Plastics sells Cresline 3/4"x100' 100 psi pipe (item 24302) for $14.80, less 15% for 12 rolls.
Home Depot and Lowe's wanted similar >1$/foot for PEX tubing.
That's different.

I measured 30 Btu/h-F-ft^2 including still water on both sides. The water films dominate the total resistance. IIRC, HDPE's thermal conductance is about 2.6 Btu/h-F for a foot (vs 223 for copper), or 520 for a 0.06 inch wall thickness, with no allowance for fouling.

US Patent No. 3,933,628 "Method and Apparatus for the Anaerobic Digestion of Decomposable Organic Materials," issued to inventor Frederick T. Varani of Golden, CO on Jan 20, 1976, assigned to Bio-Gas of Colorado describes a methane generator for a 100,000-cow feedlot, using 2 EPDM-rubber-lined trenches, each 700' long x 80' wide x 40' deep. They cost $0.02/gallon, including self-inflated solar covers and excavation. Nick
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Thank you for the pipe info, Nick.
Not to be difficult, but the house is going into a tightly controlled residential neighborhood. We are removing one tree (out of 70+ on the lot), and doing maybe 1500 yd^3 of grading, all carefully shaped to blend with the natural contours of the site. Getting the steeply angled rooftop solar collectors (flush with roof surface) past the architectural and site control committee is expected to be a challenge. Talk of above-ground trenches with self-inflating solar covers is just not relevant to this problem.
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snipped-for-privacy@truecircuits.com wrote:

You do seem (from here) determined to take the most complicated approach. To simplify - make your patio from spancrete panels - these are pre-stressed, pre-cast concrete panels which a crane puts in place. They are used for ceiling and floor in buildings - getting one to span your 15 (or less, without rocks) foot hole will be trivial. Or, cast a top in place, but the spancrete will be easier (no need to form in the hole). Provide for a slight grade and water will flow off.
Foam will float, so fussing about glue is probably a non-issue. However, you could glue the foam to the underside of the concrete if you like. Better yet, use polyurethane spray-on foam, which will glue itself in place when sprayed. It's also waterproof enough that it's used as roofing, you you can probably skip the EDPM.
--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by

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I'd like simplicity, but it has to work within the constraints I have. I'm also suffering from a lack of information.
Spancrete panels with spray-on foam on the underside sound like just the thing. Floating isn't relevant, since it has to stay up when I drain the cistern for maintenance. But strength in compression (the good thing about blueboard) is irrelevant for the top, and I agree that spray-on foam sounds like it would stick just fine. I'll look into these.
Thank you.
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I have a copy of one test that used a 0.36 inch dia coil of copper tubing arranged in a vertical helix inside of a 10 inch diameter cylindrical tank. The coiled tube is about 128 inches long, and the coil diameter was 8 inches (about 5 turns in the coil).
The water in the cylinder was maintained at a set temperature with an immersion heater. Cooler water was pumped through the coiled copper tube. The fluid in the cylindrical tank was not mixed in any way except natural convection. The U value for the heat exchanger was calculated using the measured input and output temperatures, and the mass flows.
The U they got varies with flow rate, but its about 125 BTU/ft^2-hr-F with a flow rate around 0.7gpm.
Where U is as in the eqn: U = Q/(A (Tb - Tm)) where Tb is bath temp, and Tm is mean temp in tube A is surf area of tube
I have a pdf file on it, and can email it to you if you like.
This value seems to agree pretty well with the values given here: http://cheresources.com/uexchangers.shtml
Gary
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So I'd need 350 feet of 3/4 inch copper tubing to match the thermal transfer of 1100 feet of Nick's True Value special. To get to 500K BTU/hour for the pool HX, I'd need 700 feet of tubing, about $800. That's 70% more $ than the True Value special.
Of course, this tubing would be NSF rated to 500 psi+, and would stop any oxygen diffusion into the cistern. A similar chunk of 200 feet of tubing would do the DHW heating, and would look a lot more like what is normally used for potable water inside Californian houses.
(It looks like getting enough copper tubing to make a size X heat exchanger, just sitting in a bath of hot water, is just as expensive as buying a gas pool heater with the same BTU/hr capacity. Wow.)
My architect suggested that, since we'll be shooting several truckloads of shotcrete to make the retaining walls, the incremental cost of a shotcrete cistern will probably be small, as it won't take them very long to shoot it. So it sounds like that's what we're going to go with, even though I don't have any hard numbers on the option.
I called a spancrete manufacturer. The sales guy there said that servicing a cistern with a spancrete top would require a big crane, and that he sure wouldn't use spancrete. Why not a wood deck? :-).
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No. Please read this carefully, for the third time: the water films dominate the series thermal resistance. The thin pipe wall material makes little difference. Ferguson sells 1/2"x400' rolls of 125 psi ENDOT HDPE pipe for $48, and the outside water film conductance of 1/2" pipe is higher than 3/4" pipe, per square foot.
Nick, again repeating obvious truths to people who will not listen.
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snipped-for-privacy@truecircuits.com wrote:

I think that the biggest part of the difference between U of 30 BTU/hr-ft^2-F that Nick measured, and the value measured in the test of 125 BTU/hr-ft^2-F is that in Nick's test there was no flow either inside the tube or outside the tube (except for natural convection). On the test that I described there was forced flow trough the tube, which reduces the film coefficient on the inside the tube side. If I understand your application correctly you will have pumped flow in the tube, and it seems like a value something like 125 would be in the ball park for either kind of pipe. Since the pipe is cheap, it might be good to err on the too much pipe side.
I am working on a prototype of a horizontal pond batch hot water heater that has a coil of 3/4 inch PE pipe sitting in an insulated and glazed 6 inch deep bath of sun heated water. I think that the water bath is going to hit about 120F today, and if so, I will test how good a job the PE pipe does in extracting heat from the bath. I'll pass on whatever U value comes out of this.
Gary
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Gary,
It sounds like you agree with Nick, that copper pipe is a waste of money for the pool HX because without pumped (presumably turbulent) flow on both sides, at least one water film is going to dominate the series resistance. I certainly agree that once you go with plastic tubing, it's worthwhile to err on the side of too much pipe. It would be very nice if the plastic tube HX got a U anywhere near 125 BUT/hr-ft^2-F, it'll warm the hot tub up in a hurry!
I don't have any sense of how big a deal this oxygen diffusion is. Supposedly the PEX-Al-PEX tubing is better than just PEX specifically because the Al acts as an oxygen barrier. I guess the dissolved oxygen is supposed to eat your metal bits over time. If I use PE tubing for the pool HX, I assume I'll be pumping oxygen into the cistern water.
The oxygen issue seems slightly different that the open vs closed system issue. Supposedly open systems that expose the water to air require more maintenance. My assumption is that open systems accumulate both oxygen but also organics and bacteria and whatnot, which then all has to be killed and strained from the system to prevent accumulation in the pipes and so forth.
For the DHW HX, it seems to me that the dominating issue is safety, and copper tubing seems safer than plastic tubing: Less likely to leak or crack, less likely to blow out (stronger), less likely to support some nasty thing growing. Probably more likely to leach poisonous heavy metals into the stagnating hot water, but that's why we don't make coffee from the hot water tap.
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Radiant floor people only worry about cast iron pumps.

...which loses 12% of its pressure rating for each 10 F rise above 73 F.
ENDOT has a lifetime guarantee that includes labor for the first 25 years.
Nick
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