Central Vac overload

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cabinet
is
It's counter-intuitive, but I guess the motor RPM would decrease while overloaded, not obviously increase, which does make for a sort of "runaway Toyota" feel.

the
Mine is connected to an outlet pipe and muffler to the outside, so it's doable, but hopefully not necessary with Art's relief valve.
<stuff snipped>

isn't
Otherwise,
Not sure about this issue. I suppose I could test it. For now, I am going to mount a temperature sensor in the unit and hook it up to my home automation controller to shut the unit down if the temperature exceeds a certain level. That will probably have to be a trial and error sort of thing.

Exactly. Which is why the temperature sensor might be a good thing to add in addition to the relief valve. In fact, what I should do is hook up a recording thermometer to a probe inside the silencing box to monitor a few sample runs to try to estimate the temperature rise and where it plateaus.

I've burned up enough gear accidentally (a few AMD CPUs, a few Fujitsu tablet PCs, a Sony receiver and many, many many more) that I am now hard over in the other direction, adding cooling fans to stereos and equipment racks to make sure everything gets good airflow. I believe heat really hastens the aging process and fans help reverse it. Now only if I could fan my bad knees and get them working again!

the
And those failures would be heat-related, as in winding insulation and bearing lube.

it > still "picks up" a piece of pocket litter.
The point that Art made applies here. An electrically driven motor brush head will appear to be picking up dust but in reality is just sucking it into the brush head. If there's not much dirt, it's very easy to think you're vacuuming when you're not. The motorized carpet sweeper head make enough noise that you really can't hear the change in the motor RPM or the lack of vacuum hiss.
-- Bobby G.
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Robert Green wrote:

Just make sure you clean the heat sinks and fans occasionally, or eventually, dust will plug them and they will overheat. I just had a video board start to create visual artifacts, and then crash my computer. I blew out the board fan with compressed air, and all the problems went away.
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eventually, > dust will plug them and they will overheat. I just had a video board start to

fan > with compressed air, and all the problems went away.
You're lucky you caught it before it fried. A full "dust cap" is a fine heat retainer and could have easily cooked your VPU. Smart PC'ers use programs like Motherboard Monitor that will tell them when their fan speeds have dropped enough to indicate that they are getting clogged.
I do a lot of PC repair. I have a rough rule of thumb. In a normal environment, it's probably OK to let fans go unchecked for 24 months. Subtract 1 year if the equipment's on the floor. Subtract 2 months for each shorthair dog or car in the house, 4 months for every longhair. Subtract 1 month for fans under 80 centimeters and another month for those under 40.
One neighbor with 5 longhairs and a floor tower with a teeny video card fan needed monthly cleaning so we added some more fans and covered the front intake with air conditioner filter material held in place by a little magnetic frame. Now she just vacuums the front and the machine can go almost a year without a blow-out. (For anyone considering this, the clips on the cheap case face were so weak they broke during the procedure but we replaced them with some neo mags and hot melt glue so snapping the face off to vacuum the filter was even easier. Most case faces can't withstand frequent removal without those damn little tab clips breaking.)
I *would* post a picture of a super small video card sleeve bearing cooling fan and finned heat sink mount I removed from the 5 cat machine because I had never seen anything so completely caked in dust. The fan spun, but moved no air. I replaced it with a much larger ball bearing fan simply because it was less prone to clogging and the space permitted it. However, I see the picture police are on patrol, enforcing "laws" created when bits were moved around via acoustic modem. Like so many rules of that era it has been completely outmoded by technical advances. Anyone who says that posting a link is as easy as posting a picture with a message isn't being honest. Personally I'd rather see a relevant picture *with* the message rather than clicking on a link to who knows where.
One reason we got the central vac is that we like to air cool in the summer with a big attic fan and that brings in an awful lot of dust and pollen. Switching from A/C to "free air" cooling cured my wife's allergy. Turns out that being cloistered inside superclean, highly filtered office and A/C house hyper-sensitized her to pollen. She used to sneeze up to nine times when she left an A/C'ed building and stepped out into the late spring air, which *is* mostly pollen. Our standing joke is "we don't go around trying to mate with trees, so why are they trying to have sex with our noses?"
-- Bobby G.
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I always figured it has something to do with ionic chrage passing air over an aluminum exchanger.
It may be just drying the air too much or some kind of ion charge or both.

eventually, > dust will plug them and they will overheat. I just had a video board start to

fan > with compressed air, and all the problems went away.
You're lucky you caught it before it fried. A full "dust cap" is a fine heat retainer and could have easily cooked your VPU. Smart PC'ers use programs like Motherboard Monitor that will tell them when their fan speeds have dropped enough to indicate that they are getting clogged.
I do a lot of PC repair. I have a rough rule of thumb. In a normal environment, it's probably OK to let fans go unchecked for 24 months. Subtract 1 year if the equipment's on the floor. Subtract 2 months for each shorthair dog or car in the house, 4 months for every longhair. Subtract 1 month for fans under 80 centimeters and another month for those under 40.
One neighbor with 5 longhairs and a floor tower with a teeny video card fan needed monthly cleaning so we added some more fans and covered the front intake with air conditioner filter material held in place by a little magnetic frame. Now she just vacuums the front and the machine can go almost a year without a blow-out. (For anyone considering this, the clips on the cheap case face were so weak they broke during the procedure but we replaced them with some neo mags and hot melt glue so snapping the face off to vacuum the filter was even easier. Most case faces can't withstand frequent removal without those damn little tab clips breaking.)
I *would* post a picture of a super small video card sleeve bearing cooling fan and finned heat sink mount I removed from the 5 cat machine because I had never seen anything so completely caked in dust. The fan spun, but moved no air. I replaced it with a much larger ball bearing fan simply because it was less prone to clogging and the space permitted it. However, I see the picture police are on patrol, enforcing "laws" created when bits were moved around via acoustic modem. Like so many rules of that era it has been completely outmoded by technical advances. Anyone who says that posting a link is as easy as posting a picture with a message isn't being honest. Personally I'd rather see a relevant picture *with* the message rather than clicking on a link to who knows where.
One reason we got the central vac is that we like to air cool in the summer with a big attic fan and that brings in an awful lot of dust and pollen. Switching from A/C to "free air" cooling cured my wife's allergy. Turns out that being cloistered inside superclean, highly filtered office and A/C house hyper-sensitized her to pollen. She used to sneeze up to nine times when she left an A/C'ed building and stepped out into the late spring air, which *is* mostly pollen. Our standing joke is "we don't go around trying to mate with trees, so why are they trying to have sex with our noses?"
-- Bobby G.
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Actually, the motor increases in speed because there is less load on it. It is much easier to spin the fan in less than normal air without doing any work to move air. This is the reason that the noise level goes up.
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"runaway
any
I said that backwards. The RPM does decrease when the motor is overloaded but the key to that is a blocked hose isn't really a motor overload.
The irony/complicating factor is that the motor will thermally overload eventually due to the blocked air flow but not from being asked to do more work than it can handle. It's doing less work than normal (4 amps less on the Kill-o-watt meter) but it's not getting proper cooling anymore.
Thanks!
-- Bobby G.
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Blocked and whining 8.83A, Unblocked free running inlet port - no house piping attached (cleanout, open actually) 12.96A
External air output pipe ran free when unblocked but dropped to very low flow when the hose was blocked. If there's an internal check valve, it's venting to someplace other than the vacuum's output pipe.
I used a compresible coil type cheap plastic hose in the basement, and when blocked at the nozzle it contracted considerably indicating that there was still a serious vacuum being maintained.
Another theory. It takes more work to create a vacuum than maintain it, so when the hose has contracted as much as it can, the motor has less load on it and thus the current drops. With an open vacuum, the motor is constantly sucking and never achieving even a partial vacuum within the tubing.
C'mon. There are smart people here.
Why would a plugged vacuum cleaner draw less current?
-- Bobby G.
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wrote:

Somebody else answered that once already. Basically it's not moving a bunch of air so it's not "working" any more. Now that you know the current you should able to design a circuit that alarms at the 8 amp range and is off at the 12 amp range. A 1/4ohm power resistor will give you about a 1 volt variation between the two.
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<snip>

And don't forget a delay or other override to handle the situation on startup and shutdown as you pass through the range getting to 12 amps.
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startup
Good point. In a home automation controller progam that could likely be solved by taking action only if the amperage drop persisted for over three seconds. There are times when a vacuum will suck in the end of a drape or something large enough to block the tube obviously but temporarily. I think it might be helpful to have Art's valve working in those cases because the relief would open up and whatever was stuck would just fall away.
Considering how complicated this little exercise has become, it makes me wonder what's really going on in Toyota's fly-by-wire system and whether they truly did cover all the potential "exceptions" that might occur. We may never know now that every scam artist who happens to own or have access to a Toyota is looking for a quick buck or a new car by claiming "runaway."
Thanks for your input, Ian.
-- Bobby G.
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wrote in message

when
constantly
<Somebody else answered that once already. Basically it's not moving a bunch of air so it's not "working" any more. Now that you know the current you should able to design a circuit that alarms at the 8 amp range and is off at the 12 amp range. A 1/4ohm power resistor will give you about a 1 volt variation between the two.>
Unfortunately my server delivers posts in frighteningly non-chrono order and I reply the same way. I *do* get it now and realize why my portable submersible pump makes the same kind of increased noise when it starts running dry. It takes a lot less power to raise air ten feet than water.
Live and learn . . . eventually. Then go senile and repeat.
-- Bobby G.
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Robert Green wrote:

Do you have Outlook express set to "group messages by conversation" under "view", "current view"?
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IMHO most nntp servers deliver messages in random order. It's up to your browser to sort them in the order you wish to read them in. (see Bob F message)
Do you have Outlook express set to "group messages by conversation" under "view", "current view"?
Robert Green wrote:

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Yes. This isn't about that.
Each message to usenet moves along a different path from the originator to the server that "feeds" me. Some messages take longer to arrive depending on where they originate. This has nothing to do with my browser settings and everything to do with the delays a post might encounter in finally getting forwarded to my NNTP server. News posts aren't instantaneous.
For example, it's entirely likely that a message posted from very far away will arrive well after a post from a nearby server, even though it has an earlier send date and did, indeed, start its journey earlier than the closer post did.
-- Bobby G.

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Our points were: your browser sorts them out into any order you desire.
NNTP timing doesn't matter, within a few hours, of course.
Each message to usenet moves along a different path from the originator to the server that "feeds" me. Some messages take longer to arrive depending on where they originate. This has nothing to do with my browser settings and everything to do with the delays a post might encounter in finally getting forwarded to my NNTP server. News posts aren't instantaneous.
For example, it's entirely likely that a message posted from very far away will arrive well after a post from a nearby server, even though it has an earlier send date and did, indeed, start its journey earlier than the closer post did.
-- Bobby G.
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"Robert Green" wrote:

Hmm. I use MSOE and that never happens to me. FWIW, I have FIOS (fiber to the house).
--

Regards,
Robert L Bass
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Same old moronic ideas.
Your news browser software doesn't make any difference to your NNTP presentation order. It gets what your NNTP server presents it, headers first and then as requested.
--
Stop spamming the group with your signature lines.

Common nettiquete demands no more than four (4) line of personal
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No internal check valve on most vacuums. They expect that the increased noise will let you know. With a check valve, almost no change in sound.

A vacuum does it's work by pumping air. If it is not pumping air, it is not doing as much work.
The amount of vacuum goes up when it is clogged because air is not flowing into the system.
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On 4/1/2010 8:13 AM, B Fuhrmann wrote:

Yup. I learned this many years ago in working on pipe organs. Normally, when the blower is running, it is basically plugged. The pressure is at its normal operating pressure and no air is being moved, except to any leaks. And in pipe organs there are usually many tiny leaks which eventually do add up. But, if a wind line is opened, the blower current goes up because it is now moving air and thus, doing more work. In an organ blower, the motor is usually an induction motor. It doesn't speed up as in a vacuum cleaner. In a vacuum cleaner, the motor is usually a series (sometimes called universal) motor. These motors will actually generate a back EMF. When the motor is not doing an work, i.e. sealed off, this back EMF will actually "self power" the motor a little, making it turn faster. Back in high school shop, they said that a series motor with no load, will keep going faster and faster until it literally breaks apart. I've run a small sewing machine motor, no load, and indeed it kept going faster and faster. I was afraid to keep going, but I suspect it would eventually find a top speed as even the bearings and cooling fan blade do some loading, albeit small.
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Which of course then begs the question, so what's the problem? I agree that with many pumps the speed increases when the line is plugged, because the impeller is cavitating and just spinning freely. That means the power and current go DOWN. So, why the need for a system to prevent the motor from overheating?
The only logical conclusion would be that the motor depends on the air moving through the vacuum for cooling. Even given that, I can't see how the vacuum could stay plugged up and running long enough for that to happen frequently. Surely after a minute or two of vacuuming you'd notice the head is no longer picking up dirt, that the head moves freely over carpet instead of being sucked down, etc.
It would seem to me that if this were a problem that occured frequently enough to matter, all systems would have some built-in protection besides the thermal cuttoff and the thermal cuttoff is OK for something that happens once in a blue moon.
Regarding a blue moon, I ask again, how often does this occur? I've had a central vac system for 17 years and it hasn't clogged once. If it's happening frequently, sounds like whatever is causing it is the real problem that needs addressing.
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