Central AC Advice

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Goodman isn't the cheapest brand out there. There are many brands that are cheaper! Ever stop to think it might have to do with marketing strategies?

Do you know who's rated number one for HVAC equipment sells???

to
What's your point?

bells/whistles,
But that makes your thoughts inaccurate.

No, it's a gimmick to get people to purchase a brand based on bullshit results!

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were
you
Yes, we do... but it's not based on equipment. It's based on "who's going to give me the best service", "who's going to stock parts for this unit", "who's going to go the extra mile when I need them too", "where can I get the parts if this distributor is 'out of stock' and it's an emergency", "who has the better warranty", "who is easy to deal with", "who is going to take care of warranty issues (without hassles)", etc...
You really need a clue, so here ya go...
CLUE <---- print it out so you have one!
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Again, your comprehension fails you. I did not say they were the cheapest. I said they were cheaper. I freely admit that I don't know who is the cheapest.

Number one in what respect? Total sales? Why don't you enlighten me? Seriously.

I think the point is pretty clear.

How so?

Again, for whom? 1) Consumer's Reports is a non-profit organization. 2) It was a survey of 30,000 people. The results are their readers, not CR's. They accept no advertising, nor free samples for testing.

Someone else mentioned that many of the parts are interchangeable among brands, so how is this a problem?
Let's assume for a minute that you can get equal service for any brand. Which would you be first to install? Which would be the last?

Here's one for you. http://tinyurl.com/syzt
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are
You also don't know who's the best either! As you don't know much about the HVAC/R industry.
<<more BS snipped>>

to
"who
take
Try putting a computer board from a Ford into a GM product. Will it work properly?
A Lexus dealer/distributor has car tires... will they fit my Semi?
Now, do the same thing to your HVAC equipment. Is it any different?

I see you've never been in business...
The quality of service from a distributor is no different then the service you get from a dealer. Are they always going to be equal? No!
But, for entertainment... If you had a brand that was offered by one distributor vs. a brand where several distributors offered it, which brand would you purchase?
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But what about all those brands you claimed were identical?

Evasion noted.
Come on - what's the very last brand name you'd install in your own house? It's not that hard a question.

Not the one that's at the bottom of the rating list, for starters. I would defer to my installer, after having given him a few brands I'd be interested in.
Don't get the idea I'm down on tradesmen. I simply prefer to make an informed decision.
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Does that make them *all* identical... geez, pull your head out of your ASS!!!!

No evasion, just more FACTS which you don't seem to like!

Seriously, it really wouldn't matter to me which brand it was... as long as I was the one installing it. I will also tell you (even though Goodman is at the bottom of your list), it' be fine in my home too!

service
See, this is where that survey screws with people. Goodman products are just as good as any in the field. And if that's the brand that the company is familiar with and stocks parts for, I sure as hell wouldn't want them to install something else!

informed
You say you're not down on tradesmen, yet you're here arguing with a highly competent HVAC tech (about his own trade)!! Using CR to make a decision isn't making an informed decision. It helps you make a decision based on an opinions that are not based on FACTS!!!!
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I noticed you ignored the reply from poster "yourname".

I'm not arguing you disingenuous shit. YOU were the one who didn't like the results of the survey I posted. I'm simply trying to get you to answer 2 simple questions
One more time: Let me repeat the questions. Hell, I'll even rephrase them for you.
Given *all* other factors are the same, and based on *quality* only, which current brands would you install in your own home? More importantly, which brands would you NOT install in your home.
Seeing as you already indicated some past designs or models that you didn't like, what CURRENT designs or models do you not like? And don't lie and say "I like them all."
Or are you going to pull a Fred Astaire and dance for me again?

Someone asks 2 simple questions. "What make furnace do you own?" "Have you had problems with it?" 30,000 people answer with FACTS. Sheesh. Grab a dictionary and look up "fact."
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That's because he/she has a brain.

highly
the
I didn't like the results????? Never said that... I said the survey was a complete JOKE!!! I could CARE LESS what order they list them in... again, the survey is a complete JOKE!!! As far as your questions, I have answered every single one of them with a competent answer that YOU didn't like. Tough shit!!!

which
Did you not understand my answer the first time?

didn't
say
Did you not understand my answer the first time? Here let me tell you again, it wouldn't matter which brand was installed in my home! Again, every manufacture has design flaws 'from time to time'. They show up after a few months/years, if we knew in advance that they had design flaws, they wouldn't be producing them, now would they?

I don't dance, I tell it like it is and if you don't like the FACTS, tough shit!!!

you
you
Do those same people know if their equipment is installed per code? No Do those same people know if their equipment is properly sized? No Do those same people know if their equipment is installed per the manufacture's instructions? No Do those same people know if their equipment has been set-up properly? No Do those same people know if their equipment has been maintained properly? No Those people had a repair, do they know if the service company serviced the equipment properly the first time? No Do those same people know if first repair cause issues that made the equipment fail a second time? No
Are you starting to see the point? I bet you don't and you never will... as you're to ignorant to see the FACTS!!!
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CR is a bunch of bullshit... do they account for improper installations?
No they don't and they are very often WRONG with their assessments!
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Wouldn't you think that with 36,000 installs, there would be good and bad across the board?

Learn to read for comprehension. It wasn't CR's assessment, rather 36,000 other people.
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Try talking to someone with experience on the subject... I know!

Whatever, it's still a BULLSHIT report no matter who asked the questions...
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OK, I'm asking: which ones are good, and which ones are bad?
It's a rhetorical question. I doubt that you'll answer it.
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differently.
perfect
realistic.
installations?
bad
The ones that are 'good' would be the ones that are properly sized, installed to code and set-up to operate with-in the manufacture's specifications. It will be installed by someone you can count on for repairs and be able to make those repairs in a timely fashion. Installed by someone that can give you competent answers for your questions.
The ones that are 'bad' are normally the ones installed by the lowest bidder (not always). Equipment that is under/oversized that will not only compromise your comfort, but cost you more to operate. Equipment that is installed the quickest and cheapest way. Installed by someone that may or may not return for service issues. Installed by someone with limited knowledge and resources to be able to fix any issues you might have with the equipment. Installed by an installer that doesn't understand what it takes to make the equipment operate with-in the manufacture's specifications. Installed by someone that doesn't make sure the ducting is adequate for the new equipment. Installed by someone that doesn't take care of your personal comfort issues.
Now which brand, does which company offer?
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Imagine for a minute that the ONLY factors are YOUR experience in which units have shown to be the most problematic, installation issues notwithstanding.
Which would they be?
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repairs
someone
bidder
the
takes
the
personal
units
notwithstanding.
You don't get it, your scenario doesn't exist.
Do you know that MOST equipment failures are due to improper installation issues?
Do equipment manufactures have design issues? Yes, every single one does! Give me a brand and I'll give you a failure!
Lennox - Pulse Rheem - Drum ICP - Clamshell Trane - Clamshell Janitrol - Clamshell Goodman - Gemini Consolidated - Horz HE Coleman - DGAT Honeywell - 9500 Jakel - Inducer
Every company goes through problem times... it my not be this year or the next, but it does happen. Do you automatically know which design is going to fail? No, if they did it wouldn't be in production!
The majority of comfort and reliability issues stem from a hack that slaps in your system the fastest way possible.
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That hasn't been the case in my situation.

Thank you! Now we're getting somewhere. You probably wouldn't install those units, based on your extensive knowledge of them.

Well, I had a hack install my furnace. It appears my faith in getting quality from Sears was misplaced. I later learned that they subcontract to the cheapest installers they can find. However, my few problems have all been mechanical.
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is
or
with
specifications.
for
Every case is different, which is why BRAND has very little to do with it!!

to
those
No your not, if fact, I would have no problems installing any of these brands (except Consolidated, which is no longer in business) in my home. All of these were design flaws that have been corrected.
Pulse is no longer manufactured. Drum is no longer manufactured. Clamshell problem has been addressed (most didn't show problems unless there was an installation issue). Gemini is no longer being used in that brand. Consolidated is no longer in business (but guess what, Consolidated manufactured these same units under MANY of the top brands as well). DGAT has been addressed. 9500 was a manufacturing defect... has been corrected. Inducers have been addressed.

slaps
quality
How would someone that doesn't know anymore about HVAC then you do, really know what caused your equipment failures? Hell most technicians don't know, so how in the hell could you?
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kjpro @ usenet.com wrote: ...

Their field reliability reports aren't their lab tests but reported failure reports.
So, to infer that the reliability differences reported between vendors over a large number of reports over a period of time is owing to installation would require that bad installations go with those brands -- also a reason to avoid those brands if true, but certainly not likely. Far more likely is that the percentage of failures reported that is owing to installation is an approximately consistent fraction of all reports for each brand, hence leaving the overall equipment rankings as slightly more reliable than reported but in the same (or very nearly the same) relative position.
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My own experience is backed up by facts. And the fact is... your conclusion of their report is complete BULLSHIT.
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If brand X comes out better than brand Y in a consumer survey, should I, as a consumer, really care whether that is because X's hardware is better than Y's, or is because X trains their installers better so they don't screw up as often?
--
--Tim Smith

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perfect
Manufactures could really care less if you're trained properly or not.
It comes down to the dealer... do they care? Do they want to maintain a high level of comfort and product reliability?
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