(cargo?) WARM HEAVY work-pants? (google not much help)

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Am looking for heavy-duty **warm** work-pants, and can't so far find much somewhat near the top of a google search.
Years and years (30?) ago I bought such a pair, outside made of something strong, like canvas, maybe, with a quilted semi-sweat-impermeable-covered thickish lining.
So tough that I probably could have walked through a patch of catclaw without tearing it.
And WARM.
Partly due to the lining, and partly (or mainly?) due to the *weight* of the material, which helps lower *radiative* heat loss.
These days, however, I seem to find only cheap, thin stuff, (easy to tear, wear holes into, etc) and if with lining, then only with "fleece", which in my experience will stretch and of course provides a ZERO *radiative* heat-loss barrier.
QUESTION: In northern Minnesota or Alaska, say, what do outdoor workers wear?
Or steel-workers 50 stories up, with wind-chill at -30 -- what do *they* wear?
Brands, places, prices?
THANKS!
David
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David Combs wrote:

TSC tractor stores are great for outdoor work gear.
A brand name to look for online etc- carhartt
http://www.carhartt.com /
Dave
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wrote:

A human body is not sufficiently warmer than its environment to lose much heat by radiation. The overwhelming majority of heat loss from a human body is by the evaporation of water from the skin and mucous membranes (including the lungs), and by conduction to the air. Any heat lost conductively to free air is rapidly removed convectively. The key to staying warm is to reduce this convective loss by dressing in layers, to ensure that the warm air layer next to the skin _stays_there_ instead of transporting that heat somewhere else.
Bottom line: anything that's reasonably well insulated, with a barrier to keep out wind, will keep you warm. When I'm deer hunting, I wear coveralls insulated with Thinsulate Ultra, and they keep me *very* warm -- despite the fact that deer hunting in the Midwest is a largely sedentary activity that consists mostly of sitting in a stand waiting for deer. You'll presumably be active while wearing work pants, so your need for insulation is correspondingly less than mine. My hunting coveralls are made by Walls; I don't know if they make outdoor work clothing too, but most manufacturers of hunting clothing do.
Try searching at cabelas.com or basspro.com
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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It is, on a cold clear day.
Nick
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wrote:

Not in comparison to the heat lost through evaporation and conduction/convection. Not even close.
--
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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I disagree. Got numbers?
Nick
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(Nick Pine) wrote:

In general, radiation is about an order of magnitude less effective at transferring heat than conduction or convection.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Got numbers?
Nick
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wrote:

Get your own numbers.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Here's how I figure it:
20 TDB=-2.2'average daily min temp in January in Duluth (F) 30 TDBC=(TDB-32)/1.8'dry bulb temp (C) 40 V.6'windspeed (mph) 50 W=.0012'average humidity ratio 60 PA).921/(1+.62198/W)'vapor pressure ("Hg) 70 E=3.3772*PA'vapor pressure (kPa) 80 TDP21/(17.863-LOG(PA))-460'dew point temp (F) 90 IF TDP>TDB THEN TDP=TDB 100 TDPC=(TDP-32)/1.8'dew point temp (C) 110 GAMMA=.00066*101.325'constant for wet bulb temp calc 120 TDC=(TWBEC+TDPC)/2 130 DELTA@98*E/(TDC+237.3)^2 140 TWBC=(GAMMA*TDBC+DELTA*TDC)/(GAMMA+DELTA)'wet bulb estimate (C) 150 IF ABS(TWBC-TWBEC)>.01 THEN TWBEC=TWBC:GOTO 120'iterate to 0.01 C 160 TWB=1.8*TWBC+32'wet bulb temp (F) 170 IF TWB>TDB THEN TWB=TDB 180 A=.002056*TDP+.7378'coefficient in Niles equations 190 TS'skin temp (F) 200 QR=1.63E-09*((TS+460)^4-A*(TDB+460)^4)'radiation loss (Btu/h-ft^2) 210 QC=(.74+.3*V)*(TS-TDB)'convection loss (Btu/h-ft^2) 220 B=3.01*(.74+.3*V)*((TS+TWB)/65-1) 230 QE=B*(TS-TWB)-QC'evaporation loss (Btu/h-ft^2) 240 PRINT TDB,TWB,TDP 250 PRINT QR,QC,QE
dry bulb wet bulb dew point
-2.2 -2.2 -2.2 F
radiation convection evaporation
98.83666 397.524 59.00485 Btu/h-ft^2
NREL's V = 11.6 mph in line 40 was probably measured at an airport. Changing to V = 0 lowers convection to 70 and evaporation to 10, so radiation loss dominates.
NREL's 24-hour average humidity ratio makes the wet bulb and dew points higher than the dry bulb, which probably means there's frost on an average January night, which might warm you up.
Thanks for the "education" :-)
Nick
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snipped-for-privacy@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

Heat transfer by radiation for bare skin? What about the effect of clothing on radiation efficiency?
Won't your "TS" be much closer to air temp than body temp?
Or we're you just looking for SWAG on bare skin Q as a starting point?
In any case, for properly clothed human in a cold environment, QR looks to be pretty low compared to other mechanisms
cheers Bob
cheers
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Yes. Clothing lowers the losses.

Maybe. I measured 92 F in a 70 F room.
Nick
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snipped-for-privacy@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

...
....
But one would assume you're not going to be standing out directly as a radiative body. The outer layer trying to radiate to the environment won't be but a few degrees warmer than the ambient, certainly nothing even remotely close to 90F.
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snipped-for-privacy@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

Heat transfer by radiation for bare skin? What about the effect of clothing on radiation efficiency?
Or we're you just looking for SWAG on bare skin Q as a starting point?
In any case, for properly clothed human in a cold environment, QR looks to be pretty low compared to other mechanisms
cheers Bob
PS for everyone's information, here is a qualitative article about heat loss (while outdoors, low, moderate & heavy exertion levels) hiking & backpacking related but IMO applicable to working outside as well
bottomline of the article ......QR generally very low in comparison except when person is inactive (esp at night) in a windless condition...then QR remains where heat loss by other means have fallen.
SO...wrt to keeping warm while "working" QR is not importatnt unless our subject's job involves sleeping outside. (at night) :)
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snipped-for-privacy@ece.villanova.edu wrote in wrote:

6 27 1986 -22 55.8 |-500|
all numbers >=0 all numbers <0
That should cover it pretty much.
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Makes as much sense as Doug's reply :-)
Nick
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wrote:

It's not *my* job to remedy deficiencies in *your* education.
--
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Nor mine. So far, we merely have two different opinions. YOU made a claim, and I invited you to justify it.
Nick
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wrote:

Actually, remedying deficiencies in your education *is* your responsibility.
--
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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snipped-for-privacy@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

A cold clear night is even better
cheers Bob
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