Can't figure this switch out... anyone help?

[vzmjsmlrlikn]

I have a double gang box that has two single pole switches- each switch controls one overhead light fixture. The switches were nasty looking so I decided to swap them out. Unfortunately when I removed them they just disintegrated before I could look at all the wires. Now I am stuck trying to figure this circuit out.

Two 14/2 romex cables come into the box. Grounds are tied and pigtailed- but not any of the other leads. However, there is a two inch long white wire that was used as some sort of "jumper" between the two switches. It's looped at both ends, so I know it was attached to the switch's side terminals, as opposed to the rest of the wires which used the switch's "push-in" terminals.

Fixture #1 One romex cable runs straight up to this light There is continuity across the white and black as long as there is a bulb in the fixture. I removed the fixture and verified there are no other wires up there.

Fixture #2 The other romex has a hot white and a non-hot black. The white lead is not marked. If I connect a switch across these two wires, the fixture that was controlled by it (before I messed everything up) will work. I can't (easily) get at this fixture to see what other wires may or may not be up there.

I can't understand how this was all setup to work properly & within code. Assuming Fixture #2 has a neutral somewhere else besides that box I am working in, where is the neutral for the other fixture?

[RBM]

I think you've got it figured out. It's ass backwards and wrong!!! You're hot white and non hot black are fine. White brings hot to the switch and black returns it to the fixture. Then they jumpered the hot to the second switch and returned it on the black of the second cable. The mystery, as you described, is where's the neutral coming from? It probably isn't. They probably attached that white to the box or the ground wires to make it work

[cccgolluzram]

I agree RBM that the jumper is for sharing a common hot feeding each . The white and black are being used as switch legs feeding in and out from the hot at the fixture - thru the switch - back to the - black side of the fixtures . Fixture # 1 obviously has a neutral up at it that it uses . Your not sure abou the other neutral ? But your also not sure what is in the box up at fixture # 2 ? I am assuming you haven't even opened it yet - because you claim to not have easy access . I'm sure the neutral for # 2 is up there for fixture # 2 .

[vzmjsmlrlikn]

Thanks for the info everyone. Ok, I guess the consensus is that for #2 there is a hot line and neutral @ the fixture and they ran a 14/2 line to the switch to interrupt the hot leg- no problem. What isn't resolved, and what I can't seem to get working is Fixture #1. I can't find a neutral for this anywhere. I pulled the fixture and there is only one romex cable leading in to it. If I put a bulb in the fixture I get continuity across the white and black lines back at the switch box. If I remove the bulb, no continuity. So the romex to #1 must not be interrupted anywhere along its path and goes straight up to the fixture? The fixture is a simple two bulb affair and is wired white to white and black to black.

So if the white jumper was used to fed power to #1, it would be jumper from hot leg of switch #2 to switch #1, black line attaches to other side of switch #1 and goes to fixture, but then where does white go? I can see from the marks on this white wire that it was attached to something, and I know it wasn't ground (at the switch box anyway). To re-iterate, this whole setup DID work before I messed with the switches.

[RBM]

Could it have been connected to the ground screw of one of the switches?

[vzmjsmlrlikn]

no, when the switches fell apart the metal backings remained. Both metal backings have a green screw that is attached to bare ground wires. Both ground wires go to a pigtail that binds them and the two grounds from the romex cables. The pigtail connection is a copper clip, not a plastic nut, and it is very tight- so I don't think the errant wire attached there. Also, the boxes and all conduit is plastic so there is no sneak ground that way.

[cccgolluzram]

In the problem fixture, while using the switch , it doesn't come on correct ? You Have that jumper from one switch to the other correct ? The Black on that romex should be attached to the other side of that switch going up to the fixture . The white could be attached to the other neutral in that box at the switches , giving a neutral to THAT fixture . The 2 fixtures could share the same neutral . Now this would be correct if we are understanding each other . I also hope that you are using a tester ( other than a continuity tester ) to determine that that neutral is indeed a neutral , and not tied in hot elsewhere .

[cccgolluzram]

Of course unless it isn't code in your town . Don't guess anything if your going to cause an electrical fire .

[RBM]

He doesn't have a neutral in the switch box

[cccgolluzram]

Well if there isn't a neutral anywhere , using the ground in it's place is stupid . I wonder how old the house is and if it would be easy to bring a neutral to it . I would !!!!

[cccgolluzram]

Better to have a neutral - not to be sustituted by a ground . It might be in his best interest to bring a neutral into that box . Am I missing something ? Because I'm not sure he said there wasn't at least one neutral for one fixture . Now I'm confused !

[dpb]

[RBM]

The fixture he can't get to easily, has a neutral at the fixture

[Don Young]

As far as I can tell, you have determined that the #1 fixture socket is connected across the leads of the switch cable but not whether the cable runs directly from the fixture to the switch or whether either of these conductors might in fact also be connected to a hot or neutral lead in another box. I would use a test lamp with long leads to check whether either lead, at the switch or at the fixture, is connected to a neutral or hot feeder.

I know you have discounted it but it would certainly seem most likely that the neutral for that fixture was somehow connected to the ground if it was working and has quit working only because of your work in the switch box. Of course it is possible that something has come loose somewhere else.

Don Young