Can't do simple freaking soldering on brass pipe

[jneiberger]

I'm a total newbie at this stuff, but it shouldn't be this freaking hard. All I'm trying to do is a simple repair on a 1" brass pipe. I've cut away a section of the old pipe and I've got the new section ready along with two 1" coupler fittings. I've never done any soldering, but I've got a book that explains it and it didn't look that hard. I even talked to people who made it sound like a really simple thing.

Well, my first attempt went really, really poorly. I couldn't get a solid bead of solder around the joint. It was a total mess. So, I cut that away, cut another section of new pipe, bought some more couplings and tried again. I'm still having a similar problem. I can't get the solder to go onto the pipe. It's really pissing me off!

This should be simple. I sanded the fittings and applied soldering paste, put the fittings together, heated them to the point where the paste is bubbling, and then tried to apply the solder. Both sets of instructions I've read said to stop applying heat at that point and the solder should just go on easily. Well, I tried that and it isn't working. Someone else said I should keep applying heat to the solder. I tried that and it isn't working. It seems like no matter how much I heat the joint or the solder, it won't stick to the pipe. It's like the solder just breaks off into little chunks and falls right off.

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? This is seriously pissing me off and I'm about to do some serious damage to my plumbing on purpose. This is freaking simple stuff, yet I can't do it and I'm ready to put my fist through a wall, which is a bad idea. I'd like to get this done without breaking any bones.

Any thoughts?

Thanks, John

[willshak]

on 7/22/2007 7:02 PM [e-mail] said the following:

Open a sink faucet above the pipe you are trying to solder. It sounds ike you have water in the pipe which is drawing away the heat. Get a pail to put under the pipe you are trying to solder to catch the water after you open the faucet.

[Andrew Sarangan]

Most likely cause is you are not getting the joint hot enough. Apply the heat for a longer time. Then chill out (pun intended). Losing patience is not the best way to accomplish this task.

[jneiberger]

This is a vertical pipe outside my house that feeds my sprinkler system. I'm working on a section that has no water in it at all right now. I appreciate the tip, though.

[jneiberger]

When I did this yesterday I thought my problem was that I was getting it too hot and was drying out the soldering paste. I heated the joint for a really long time yesterday and the results were awful. Then I re- read my instructions and they said to heat it for 4-5 seconds. I thought maybe I was drying out the flux and that made it difficult for the solder to go where it needed to go. I thought it was pretty dang hot when I tried it again earlier. I don't know how it's possible that the solder wouldn't stick. It's just blowing my mind. I've never even watched someone do this, though. I bet i'd spot my mistakes immediately if I could watch someone who knew what he was doing.

[Dave Bugg]

Video of copper pipe soldering

Copper to brass soldering video

[Clark]

" [e-mail]" wrote in news: [e-mail]:

go here:

look for topic on sweat joints

Sweating 1" isn't the place to be learning but no matter where you go, there you are.

[Scott Townsend]

The fitting when headed will change colors. I usually wait till its a shade of black, then it will kind of turn a light color again. Then apply the solder... IT takes way more then 10 seconds to get the heat applied all the way around the fitting.

Scott> Most likely cause is you are not getting the joint hot enough. Apply

[jneiberger]

soldering

I just watched those videos (thanks, by the way!) and I still don't see what I'm doing wrong. The only thing I can think is maybe I didn't have the fittings quite shiny enough, but I thought they were. Or maybe I'm using too much flux? Is that possible?

I guess the problem I have now is that I have an unfinished soldering job. Is it possible to pick up where I left off or do I have to cut that section out and start over with a new coupling?

Thanks!

[Eigenvector]

To go against what someone else suggested - you may be getting the joint too hot. The solder won't stick or wick into the joint if its too hot.

BTW: This isn't something you can learn in one day - trust me. It takes quite a bit of practice and on top of that brass is even more difficult to solder because it's typically thicker than copper. If it all possible I'd practice in the garage on a couple pieces of spare until you get it down right - then work on the real problem. It's something you have to get right and it won't be obvious to your untrained eye when it is right.

[jneiberger]

It think it doesn't help that I'm using propane. From what I've heard today, propane isn't as hot as acetylene or MAPP. Maybe I'll try again and let it get even hotter. I'm going to end up going through a whole bottle of propane on two couplings! This is ridiculous... I know I'm not a handy man, but this can't be that hard! Those videos made it look so easy.

[jneiberger]

Thanks, that opinion does help. I was beginning to think that I had gotten it too hot. The solder is definitely not wicking into the joint like it's supposed to. It just clumps up and falls away. Very annoying. I'm trying to avoid having to pay a professional to come do it, though. I've called a couple of places and given them very good information about the job and they still won't quote me a price over the phone. And they charge $40 just to come out and look. I don't know if they're going to charge $50, $100, $200...I have absolutely no idea. But hell, I've already spent nearly $80 for the supplies to try it myself. What a pain in the ass...

[Big_Jake]

Make sure that the solder is good for brass pipe, and that the soldering paste is compatible with the solder. I know this sounds like common sense, but I was having lots of issues with getting good results with 95/5 solder and lead free paste. I changed over to lead free, silver bearing solder and paste that specifically says "lead- free" on it. The silver bearing solder only costs around $.50 more per pound than the regular lead free solder. A couple of other tips:

1) Heat both sides of the joint. Apply more heat to whichever part has more metal to it. I like to work around the joint, then apply solder to the opposite side of the joint that I am applying the heat to. 2) If your torch can use propane or MAPP gas, use MAPP since it can generate more heat. 3) You don't need to get the metal glowing cherry red, it is easy to apply too much heat to it, and burn off all the flux.

Feel free to email me off list if you are still having issues.

JK

[dpb]

Read this and several replies and your responses --

First question I have is "brass"??? You sure or you mean copper which would be far more normal ordinary plumbing fittings.

After you get past that, what are you using for flux and solder?

And, finally, heat source? A 1" pipe takes a pretty decent-sized flame to heat adequately quickly.

As for technique, heat the fittings, not the pipe and definitely not the solder. Hot enough is when the solder melts on touch to the joint. If it doesn't flow easily you've either got incompatible solder for the material, flux, or both.

If you are new at this, I'd also suggest buying a couple feet of regular

1/2" Cu and a few fittings and practice on a few of them to get the hang of it rather than continuing to practice on your end project.

--

[jneiberger]

I'm sure you're right. It's got to be copper. :)

I'm using Oatey silver lead-free solder and Oatey H-20 water soluble flux.

Just a simple propane torch.

I definitely need the practice. Unfortunately, at this rate I'm pretty sure I'm not saving any money by doing it myself. I should have just paid for a real plumber to do this from the beginning. But now I've spent nearly $80 in supplies. I might as well try to finish the job.

If I did it wrong and I have an unfinished solder joint, can I pick up again to finish it, or do you think I'll just need to cut away that section and start over with a new coupling?

Thanks!

[Eigenvector]

That's why plumbers get paid so much - it isn't easy. I have heard a lot of people speak ill of propane, I don't necessarily believe that. I think MAPP just makes it go quicker.

[EXT]

Also, don't apply the heat to the actual joint, apply it to both sides of the joint, keep moving the torch from one spot to the other and for 1" pipe be sure to cover all around the joint, that is a large joint and it will soak up a lot of heat.

Rather than try to do a complete joint, why don't you tin the brass pipe. The brass metal seems to be the problem, so work on this by itself by heating and applying solder to the brass pipe by itself so you can see what is happening and without the joint there will be less metal to drain the heat away. When you get it coated in solder take a cloth and wipe the excess melted solder off the pipe so you can slip the coupling on over it, it will go much smoother if you do this.

[jneiberger]

That's an interesting approach. I might give that a try. As someone else pointed out, though, this is almost certainly copper pipe and fittings. I don't know why I kept saying brass earlier. This is just a one-inch water line to a sprinkler system. I think that would be an odd use for brass, wouldn't it? The fact that I don't know with 100% certainty probably shows that I shouldn't be attempting this. However, that's one of the reasons my ex-wife left me. :) I know I'm not much of handyman, but I'm trying to learn.

[Clark]

" [e-mail]" wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Like I said before, go to this forum, search for the thread on sweat joints. Read the pro's recommendations and follow through.

You don't need to cut away the section. It does have to be cleaned with emory cloth. The pipe couplings have to be equally clean. Don't use water soluble flux. Don't heat the solder, heat the joint. Keep the torch moving. One inch copper with propane is tough. Good luck.

[jneiberger]

Ah...I am using Oatey H-20 water soluble flux. Should I make another (fourth) trip to Home Depot and get some different flux?

Maybe a neighbor has some different flux. I may also need to borrow a different torch. I've tried two propane torches (first one kept going out). Maybe a MAPP or acetylene torch would work better, especially on one-inch pipe outside in a breeze. Damn wind.