Problem: All the wood sold in lumberyards and other stores around here would have been tossed out as culls in past years but now it is sold as premium grade lumber. It is twisted, green, full of knots, shaved along the edges. I can't buy any good 2x4's anymore. A friend is tearing apart a deck and offered me some of the best 2x4's I've even seen but they are pressure treated. Does the arsenic stay in the wood or does it emit fumes over time? Should I avoid using it for an interior wall?
Bob
2) You should not use it outdoors anyplace humans might come into contact with it. That means decks, porches, rails, fences. Use it under the deck for the main supports, but wear gloves & long sleeves when you handle it. This is why playground equipment made from treated lumber is gradually being dismantled and replaced. There are people who don't think this is necessary, but those people don't have children.
3) I have no trouble finding decent wood at Lowes, Home Depot, and 3 locally owned lumber yards. Try harder.
Interesting, When I replaced a rotted section of sill plate (I belive that is what the call the first layrer of lumber on top of the foundation) in my basement, the building inspector himself told me to use pressure treated lumber... And this was just 2 years ago...
I'd bet you aren't shopping in middle Tennessee. We have Home Depot, Lowe's, the lumberyards, The Building Center, all the big chains and the little stores. The wood in the stores around here is garbage. I don't know what you mean by "try harder". Does that mean I should drive to the Northwest? I'm glad you have good wood, but that doesn't help me.
Bob
Sez you.
What a flaming crock of shit.
Uhhh, no. If it's being dismantled and replaced it's likely because it was never properly maintained and is discolored and splintering.
Ohhh, spare me. Go lock your kids in a bubble and keep them there until all of the toxicity, disease and dirt is removed from the world. Kiss them goodbye before you do, 'cause they're never coming out.
Twit.
Locally, sill plates, on interior or exterior walls, are required to be treated. :)
Jeff
Perhaps these will help you decide:
I did a fair amount of research before building my deck using CCA pressure treated lumber and decided that it was wise to take precautions in handling the wood, particularly where dust might be developed. I saw nothing though that indicated that fumes could be a problem. Seems unlikely given the low vapor pressures of the chemicals involved. And if there are concerns about leaching, you can apply some of the common deck finishes to practically eliminate that risk, as indicated by the following report of tests by the Forest Products Laboratory:
Coatings Found to Greatly Reduce Leaching from CCA-Treated Wood-- Concerns have increased that arsenic pentoxide, chromium trioxide, or copper oxide released from the surface of chromated copper arsenate (CCA)-treated wood used in playground equipment and decks can harm people or the environment. Although experts disagree on the severity of the threat posed to children or other users of treated wood products, many consumers are seeking methods to minimize any risk of chemical exposure. Coatings or sealers are often recommended, but their efficacy in preventing leaching has undergone little evaluation. To address this question, researchers at the Forest Products Laboratory (FPL) recently evaluated the ability of three common coatings to reduce leaching from CCA-treated wood. Replicate matched specimens of treated 2 by
6 lumber were given one of the following coatings:(1) latex primer followed by one coat of outdoor latex paint, (2) oil-based primer followed by one coat of oil-based paint, or (3) two coats of a penetrating oil semi-transparent deck stain. The specimens were then exposed to 30 inches of artificial rainfall for 3 weeks. The water running off of the specimens was collected and analyzed for preservative components. The results were very promising. All three coatings reduced leaching of arsenic pentoxide, chromium trioxide, and copper oxide by over 99% in comparison to uncoated specimens. None of the water collected from specimens coated with latex or oil-based paint contained any detectable copper, chromium, or arsenic. In some cases, water collected from the specimens that were coated with the penetrating oil stain did contain detectable levels, but the highest level of arsenic detected in these samples was still well below the EPA's drinking water standard. This study suggests that the application of these common coatings is an excellent recommendation for consumers who are worried about chemical exposure from CCA-treated wood. [Source: Stan Lebow, Wood Preservation and Fire Research Work Unit, FPL)
I would use PT wood where it touches the floor in the basement, or the likely place where it might get moisture and avoid it elsewhere. Cutting PT makes dust that you should not inhale and PT slivers in the skin are slow to heal. Keep looking for good premium grade
2x4's--you'll eventually find them. The arsenic compound stays in the wood. Yes, avoid it on the interior wall.
I guess he doesn't read anything but the sports page.
Arsenic is bad for everyone except YOUR family? How do you figure?
Uhhh...no. It's being dismantled because it's often found to still be oozing the stuff it's treated with, which tests WAY positive for arsenic. Only stupid people would let their kids climb on such stuff.
Germs are one thing. But, you don't build up resistance to arsenic. Go back to the television.
According to Doug Kanter :
Uhhhh... no. None of the studies that I've seen to date has managed to prove the notion that it leaches to any significant extent, as opposed to the builder's being sloppy and leaving construction residue (eg: sawdust) lying around. Or idiots burning the stuff.
Contrast that with creosote. Creosote certainly _does_ leach. Quite a bit. So much so, for example, that despite being treated fairly uniformly with creosote, over time the top end of a telephone pole effectively has _no_ creosote, but the butt end (and earth surrounding it) has a lot more than it started with. This is of considerable importance to electrical companies. They can cut the butt ends off, and pitch the rest of the pole in the normal waste stream. Only have to pay hazmat disposal on the butt ends.
There's one study done several years ago where they had people rub PT lumber and lick their hands. Tests showed no detectable levels of arsenic, _despite_ the test being sensitive enough to detect the amount of arsenic detectable after eating a single sardine. [arsenic naturally occurs in sardines.]
Are they recalling sardines? ;-)
Most (if not all) of the stories about medical effects from CCA-treated lumber is a result of gross misuse. Ie: living beside someone who has been burning it in their fireplace for _years_, or carpenters who haven't been wearing dust masks for _years_.
Yes, you can hurt yourself or others if you don't handle the stuff properly.
But there's no real evidence that if it is handled properly that it's a hazard.
The government has decided to remove the stuff from the general market primarily because of the risk of misuse. Not because of the risk from proper use.
I personally wouldn't use treated lumber (CCA or ACQ) inside a house _unless_ it was necessary for rot resistance. And I'd paint it.
But I don't hesitate to use it outdoors where appropriate.
I can get decent non-treated lumber from lots of places - heck, half the time the treated lumber is of worse quality than the untreated.
It's also worthy of note that not all CCA has been restricted. CCA is still permitted for some purposes. Simply because ACQ isn't nearly as good as CCA for extreme conditions.
Factually false.
Actually you can build up a tolerance to arsenic if the dosages are low and long term. But it's very stupid to rely on that.
Call the health department for Monroe County NY and wander around a few phone extensions until you find the person who conducted the rigorous study here. Have a good day.
Curious that the Monroe County NY website uses a CT study as a source when they talk about leaching--
Jim
Based on memory of the two talk shows which discussed it, I'd guess 3 years. I've seen at least two playgrounds rebuilt with synthetic stuff, playgrounds whose structures were nowhere near the end of their life cycles.
Bottom line, though, is simple: There is a certain segment of the population that believes anything which is sold is automatically safe. And, this same segment has difficulty extrapolating. So, if a mfr says "use gloves when handling this wood, and wear a face mask when cutting it", it doesn't dawn on some people that maybe it's not such a great idea to build a deck whose fences people will lean on in bare skin, or a picnic table. Or, perhaps these people's kids are different from every other kid that's ever walked this earth. Their kids don't put their hands in or near their mouths constantly. Yeah...that's it.
;Contrast that with creosote. Creosote certainly _does_ leach. Quite a bit. :So much so, for example, that despite being treated fairly uniformly with ;creosote, over time the top end of a telephone pole effectively has _no_ :creosote, but the butt end (and earth surrounding it) has a lot more than ;it started with. This is of considerable importance to electrical companies. :They can cut the butt ends off, and pitch the rest of the pole in the normal ;waste stream. Only have to pay hazmat disposal on the butt ends.
!!! Now I finally understood what they did with the poles around here after they took the power underground 2 months ago. They came by and lop the top off everyone of them - each post cut off at a seemingly different point. Then later they come back to take the butt ends out. Learn something new everyday. :-)
According to Doug Kanter :
They _also_ tell you to wear eye protection and a dust masks when using power saws on non-PT wood.
So that rules out non-PT wood too.
And plastic.
Ohmygawd!
My toilets are dangerous and shouldn't be touched! (draino instructions say to wear gloves...)
Paint is dangerous and shouldn't be touched! (the instructions say "do not eat")
Steel is dangerous and shouldn't be touched! (welders wear eye protection and gloves)
Glass is dangerous! (you could get cut...)
You get the idea.
All the things you mention are visible, and easily avoidable. Arsenic is NOT avoidable, especially for little kids. But, you're right. I get the idea. Not the same idea, though.
You most certainly can use pressure treated lumber for anything - including playground equipment and food preparation areas. It's been done for decades. Only in the past few years have the hysterics found something more to be outraged about - "It's for the children!"
As you say yourself, "... (it is) gradually being dismantled and replaced..." which indicates something considerably less than an imminent threat.
Besides, pressure-treated wood no longer contains arsenic (damned enviromental whackos).
Anybody who would wear gloves, long-sleeve shirts, and a breathing mask when handling pressure treated wood is a pussy.
As to the original question, no don't use pressure treated wood indoors. It comes wet. As it drys, it warps. If, for example, you intend to build a fence using this stuff, spread the pickets out in the garage for a month to let them dry, else you'll end up with a curly fence that has 3/8" gaps.
I have a hair dryer with a caution to not use it under water... :)
Jeff
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