Can a submersible pump and manual pitcher pump coexist?

[zeb7k]

Hi, I just had drilled a 145' well and installed submersible pump. It has a temp water setup now (for construction) so I'm not completely finished with my well system.

Is there a way for a manual pitcher pump and a submersible pump to use the same casing? I asked my well driller and he said he doesn't know how to do that. In my own naive way I would think the pitcher pump could use even the same drop pipe.

I just thought it would be a neat survival type thing to have a manual pump. The Lehmans catalog has about a dozen to choose from.

--zeb

[Doug Miller]

Easier and more practical to get a generator instead...

[dpb]

On Jan 31, 8:52 am, [e-mail] wrote: ...

How, in your naive way, would you propose to do that?

I suppose it _could_ be engineered to coexist, but never seen it done. As Doug says, simpler for short-term emergency/storm/etc. solution is the gen-set which can provide the backup power for heat and lights and food refrigeration at the same time.

I've not explored it, but in a similar vein have wondered if there were any way to make one of the solar-powered small volume pumps coexist--here, at least, would almost always be sufficient sun with the exception of only day or two at a time at most and even then unlikely to be so dark as to have no effect. Limited volume capacity, of course, but for survivalist mode could possibly be adequate w/ some preparation for storage.

Might look to manufacturers of the pumps for possible solutions???

-- dpb

[gfretwell]

How far down is the static water level? The well point is 145 but the water itself could be higher. If it isn't 20 feet or so the pitcher pump won't work.

[zeb7k]

First I would assume that water can be drawn thru the non-operating sumersible pump. Then what you would need is a tee off the drop pipe near the top: One branch for the normal water line, one branch for the pitcher pump. Then you would need some sort of magic check valve on the pitcher pump branch that would allow suction from one side (pitch pump) but disallow flow if there was pressure from the opposite side (submersible pump). Is that naive enough?

[Harry K]

Yes, -if- you can fit two pipes into the well casing (shouldn't be a problem).

The next thing is depth to water level. A pitcher pump is a suction pump and you can only suck water about a max of 26 ft. There are other mechanical pumps (lift pumps) that would work. More expensive and more complicated but the only installation problem is fitting two pipes down the well.

Yes, you could tee off the drop pipe near the top but the same 26 ft max draw still applies. In reality, due to the need to suck the water through the submersible pump you would lose some footage from that 26 ft.

Harry K

[Doug Miller]

Theoretical maximum for a suction pump is actually 10.34 meters or 33.9 feet.

[dpb]

...

:) I think so... I asked more in a rhetorical way as I figured that thought process would lead to a number of questions... :)

As someone else already noted, at 145-ft, one would assume the water table is at the highest something like 80', far more likely 100' or even deeper. I don't know of any such pump that has such lift so you would have to rely on the standing head in the pump outlet pipe and the footcheck valve to not let it drop below the pickup point. Then, the assumption of any sizable volume being picked up around the pump impellers and housing in the pump is not a very good one -- the effectiveness of a pump relies on close tolerances there to provide the outlet pressure and lift. Then, when the pump isn't running, the above-mentioned check valve has to remain closed or the level will drop slowly and when it is closed, there isn't a path at all from below and it won't open w/o the pump head pushing it open -- in essence the reverse of the check valve you need at the top. IOW, the best you could possibly hope for imo is whatever standing water there is from the top of the water column to the maximum depth of the manual pump's lift and when this volume was exhausted you'd again be w/o water until had power to recharge that volume.

[terry]

If the OP is using a submersible pump it suggest a deepish well? Surface pumps (especially if nice and snug in ones basement where easier to get at them under any weather conditions), usually simpler and cheaper to install and maintain as a single unit. Also no need to run AC wiring down the pipe to the submersible etc. Reminds of story here where a guy took a ground level suction pump back twice as 'defective'. Finally it occurred to the supplier to ask how deep was the well! "Oh about 30 feet was the reply". Not only 30 feet but well was also slightly downhill of the house adding another four or five feet to the expected 'lift'! Duh.

[Goedjn]

You could put a 'T' or a 'Y' and a check valve just above the submersible. Then whenever you start sucking water from above, the check valve opens and lets water in, but when the electric pump pushes, water is forced up the shaft.

How do you keep the electric pump from driving water through the pitcher pump? You'd need some sort of manual valve for that end.

I've stuck a sketch at

(presemumably, the pump assembly has it's own check valve)

--Goedjn

[zeb7k]

Yes, thanks for the picture, that's what I was thinking of. But what I've learned here is that my well is simply too deep (150') for any kind of manually operated pump, right?

--zeb

[Goedjn]

It's not so much a question of how deep the well is, as it is how deep the water is. And even with a water level that's more than 30' down, there are manual lift pumps that will do it, it's only vacuume pumps that won't work. OTOH, by the time you work out all the bypasses and valves and things for the latter scenario, you'd probably be better off with two completely independant systems that just use the same hole in the ground.

Worst case, you could always pop the wellhead off, and drop a little bucket down the well on a rope....

[Harry K]

Nope.

1. The suction pump will suck the footvalve open - it opens when pressure on the outlet side is less than that on the other.

1. A suction pump working on a pipe 80 ft long (for example) will only exhaust the top about 26 ft (at sea level). In reality, it probably won't do more than pump a cup full or two before sucking a vacuum.

No 'suction' pump will draw water from over 26' (sea level) above the static water level no matter how it is hooked up.

Harry K

[Harry K]

Correct but that is the theoretical. The practical due to pipe friction, seal loss, etc. is about 26' at sea level.

Harry K

[Dave Martindale]

Not exactly. No pump, manual or power, with the pumping mechanism on the surface can lift water more than 25-30 feet, because it depends on atmospheric pressure to do the lifting. But if the mechanism is down below water level in the well casing, this limit doesn't apply. That's how submersible pumps work (impeller is below water level) and jet pumps (the venturi that does the actual pumping is down in the well).

So you *could* build a manually-operated pump that was 150' high, with the operating handle at the top, the piston and valves at the bottom, and the pipe plus a long rod coupling the handle to the piston. On the other hand, lifting water 150' takes a lot more force than lifting it 10 or 20', so you won't enjoy operating such a pump by hand.

Dave

[Don Young]

Such deep well "force" pumps have actually existed for probably 100 years or more. They have been operated by hand levers or mechanical "pump jacks" worked by motors or windmills.

Don Young

[Andy Asberry]

With a typical 1 7/8" working barrel, each foot of water column lifted will weigh about 1.2 pounds. 100 foot depth to >> standing water

[Dave Martindale]

Or steam engines. I think the original Cornish beam engines operated pumps deep in the coal mines in basically this way.

Dave

[Dave Martindale]

[Andy Asberry]

Actually Dave, I was agreeing with you. I was simply pointing out that a column of water can quickly get heavy.

And for those who may not know, a working barrel is the cylinder. The working valve is the piston. And Dave is correct, the piston area determines the water column lifted.

It is common to attach a submersible pump to the bottom of the working barrel and push water through it and the valves. Especially on windmills when the wind doesn't blow. Only one pipe needed. And yes, the rod pump will pull water through the submersible.

The son of a windmill man.

--Andy Asberry--

------Texas-----