Building Collapse....

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chinese find awesome cost cutting methods.
did you know 45,000 died last year in mining accidents?
The US should allow ALL imports, but require them to meet US health, safety and workers rules........
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Then there were be no point in having exported several million manufacturing jobs out of the country (he says with deep sarcasm). Anyone who thinks those jobs are coming back is smoking jimson weed or worse. The Chinese version of OSHA is: anyone complaining about workplace safety is taken away and shot and their families are sent a bill for the bullets. The scariest part is that they could sink us (and perhaps themselves and maybe the whole world) by just selling all the US bonds they are holding. I read today that the real, "uncooked" jobless rate is over 17%. That's close to 1 out of every 5 workers being out of work.
-- Bobby G.
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yeah NAFTA was a BAD idea.............
the machines I sell and service for a living now come from china.
my family in phoenix is devastated, nearly all manfacturing jobs went to mexico, home prices are in free fall, severe unemployment.
how long will recovery take 5 years? 10? 20:(
the only way we can compete is moving to robotics with artifical intelligence.
or drop our standard of living to near match 3rd world countries
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I've heard a number of people tell me that their factory was disassembled, crated and sent over to China. That's going to turn out to be as smart as when we sold Japan scrap steel from the 3rd Av. El only to see it come back in the form of battleships and aircraft carriers that killed our soldiers and sailors. We'll go toe-to-toe with the Chinese someday. "The two biggest kids on the block, they're bound to get in a fight."
By the time we end up in a fight a strong national military, ours will have been so well trained in fighting terrorists in hiding in the hills that we may take quite a beating. Instead, we're doing what we've done for the last 100 years: fought Europe's wars for them. Iran's missiles will land in Spain, England, Germany, Russia and Italy a long, long time before they ever reach the US. Saddam was a bigger threat to his neighbors than he ever was to us. But who spent trillions in treasure to fight him while bleeding out jobs by the millions?

Sorry to hear that. When SocialSec blows up, lots of boomers are going to be in bad, bad shape. No one's talking about how the unemployment rate means there are fewer people than ever paying into the system. Without another technical miracle like the PC (no, it wasn't tax cuts that made the 90's so fruitful) we're in bad, bad shape.

No one even talks about the worst case scenario and that's we never recover. I read that the bozos that did all the fancy hedge fund risk predictions had deliberately excluded the Great Depression from their calculations. Ostrich mathematics.

Maybe. I believe only a national commitment to solar like the one JFK made to reach the moon *might* save us. I read an article that said robotics firms are suffering in Japan and many robots that are leased out are "out of work." When robots go on the unemployment line, you KNOW you've got a serious depression on your hands.

Equilibrium. I don't see how we could have expected anything else from exporting all our jobs to the 3rd world and then selling them the equity in our homes to pay for all the cheap goods they were able to produce. Their S.O.L. rises, ours falls. Water seeks its own level sort of thing.
I think the bottom line is that Malthus was right at the wrong time. The earth just can't support 8 or 10 billion people. The do-gooders like Bill Gates bringing medicine and lower death rates to people who can barely feed themselves as it is are really just adding to the crisis that will hit us like a hammer 20 years from now when the population of the world explodes. For every powerplant we equip with scrubbers, China builds two new ones without.
-- Bobby G.
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the ridiculously low interest rates for a ridiculously long length of time, and Gates as a proxy for the productivity gains made possible by computerization.
--
To find that place where the rats don\'t race
and the phones don\'t ring at all.
  Click to see the full signature.
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Citation please.
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CWLee wrote:

Actually, it was over twice that and that was a reduction...

<http://paguntaka.org/2009/01/30/mining-exploration-accident-in-china-2008-review-china%E2%80%99s-coal-mining-death-decline/
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(Rest deleted)
I was the person seeking the citation, since those numbers seemed much too high for me. The citation provided did in fact support the very high number of deaths in China (~100,000 per year) in coal mining. I was still skeptical, and did a search on "coal mining deaths china" and found several sites that provided numbers much lower. Finally, I found one which said:
CORRECTION: 3,215 coal mining deaths in 2008
On January 28, China.org.cn carried a Xinhua story that mistakenly reported 91,172 deaths due to accidents in China's coal mines during 2008. The correct figure for 2008 coal mining deaths is 3,215, according to the State Administration of Work Safety (SAWS).
SAWS told China.org.cn today that a total of 3,215 people were killed in coal mining accidents in China during 2008, down from 3,786 in 2007.
A SAWS spokesperson said the 91,172 figure referred to the total number of deaths resulting from 413,752 accidents of all types throughout China during 2008. The figures include all workplace accidents as well as road traffic accidents. The corresponding figures for 2007 were 101,480 and 506,376. It is believed a mistake at a press conference led to the total accident figures being applied to coal mining alone.
The Chinese authorities acknowledge there is a major problem of health and safety in the country's coal mines, but say most accidents occur in small, privately-owned, and often illegal, mines rather than larger, state-owned producers. They also maintain that safety standards are gradually improving.
(China.org.cn February 9, 2009)

<http://paguntaka.org/2009/01/30/mining-exploration-accident-in-china-2008-review-china%E2%80%99s-coal-mining-death-decline/
I can provide the links I read from the search I described above, but I suggest any other skeptics do a similar search of their own. I now believe the annual deaths in China from coal mining are in the 5,000-10,000 range, not approximately 100,000.
Best regards to all
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<stuff snipped>

Excellent catch, sir. I never failed to be amazed at how erroneous (and nearly unbelievable) information gains a monstrous life of its own on the Internet. Who hasn't done a Google search on a phrase in, say Wikipedia, only to find that 100 other sites have lifted the information? Sometimes it's verbatim, but sometimes is been subject to editing that subverts the original meaning, often with a nefarious agenda. My "favorite" (sarcasm alert) false numbers are war casualty statistics, loosely based on the "we lost no one, they lost everyone" theory.
I wonder, in this case, how much of the repetition of the outrageously highly initially quoted death toll is due to good faith transposition errors or a desire to believe that life is valueless, or near so, in China. Actually, what I think it says is that China is much, much larger than the US, so the numbers alarm us disproportionately, and that the Chinese are mining an enormous amount of coal. We had some pretty serious mine death figures in the US until we got serious about mine safety (the Feds, not the industry - they came along screaming ever inch of the way). This Mine Safety and Health Administration site
http://www.msha.gov/DISASTER/DISASTER.HTM
will show that the US and China have had some very parallel experiences when it comes to lots of miners dying yearly. Hopefully, they'll clean up their act as we did.
BTW, no offense meant to any posters here in this thread - I am sure no one falsified any statistics. It's just well known that if you take any group, from football teams to political parties to nations, there's SOMEONE that's got a bone to pick with them. Falsifying statistics is a time-honored way of doing that!)
-- Bobby G.
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Tony wrote:

For the same amount of material, a tube is stronger than a solid cylinder.
Compare a soda straw with a #2 pencil.
No, wait...
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Dig, dig, dig. The hollow piling is stronger for its intended load. The hollow tube piling has greater bearing capacity. The woulda/ coulda/shoulda Monday morning quarterbacking stuff is stupid. The excavation and the heavy rains are what caused the building to fall. Note the other buildings did not fall.
I know nothing of the seismic activity in the area, climate (read typhoon, etc), so it is pointless to speculate whether the design was adequate or not. If a contractor undermines a foundation, whatever the design, it will fail. R
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RicodJour wrote: ...

Certainly, that last was precisely the point I was made. The failure was of the nature it was because once the initial lean became of a certain magnitude the construction had little compensation for tension.
I still say seems at least moderately unusual to have so little steel in large concrete construction. I've not tried a typical design wind loading calculation estimate, but there would be quite a moment on those towers that would be translated downward on the windward side.
__
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wrote:

It's a little hard to see in the photos but to me it looks like the pilings were actually made by first driving metal piles into the ground and then filling the inside of them and encasing the outside of them in concrete. most likely they drilled a hole to some depth, then dropped the piles in and drove them deeper, then backfilled it all with concrete with some rebar.
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Ashton Crusher wrote:

I didn't see any rebar of any size at all anywhere in any of the pictures...
--
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hey its a chinese design, rebar costs money:(
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There is some. Go to the very bottom picture, it's the best one for seeing the rebar and the steel pile. Upper left corner of the photo.
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Ashton Crusher wrote:

Evidently that one piece of rebar wasn't enough. ;-)
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If that was a NYC building, the foundation would be packed with dead mobsters instead of rebar. (-"
-- Bobby G.
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In typed:

lol, with a little bracing, that coule be turned into another building just as it sets! Imagine the room dimensions!
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typed:

Architect I.M. Pei once said that we should reconsider our love of skyscrapers, particularly in earthquake zones because "Someday, the world's tallest building may end up being the world's longest one." I think he may be right if this is how they're being built.
-- Bobby G.
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