...
That they _can_ and do is one thing, that a buyer should have their own representation is another. It's a CYA kinda' thing -- most often, things are fine, but if there's a glitch, it's much harder (and sometimes impossible) to get redress after the fact...
Title companies have their place, but they're not attorneys and they're normally not _really_ in a position that your best interest is their primary concern.
IMO, ymmv, $0.02, etc., etc., ...
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Insufficient data to know whose error it is...but, if plan calls for as stupid an arrangement as this appears to be, the "reasonable" doctrine could come into play if it were to go so far as a suit (which, of course, is not what I'm advocating either).
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This is not that uncommon, actually, although if this wasn't all properly disclosed, then there may have been a violation of laws or ethical standards.
Consider, for example, if you are a buyer, and you go to a major real estate company, such as Century 21, or RE/Max, and retain one of their agents as your buyer's agent.
There will be many houses listed through other agents at that office, and those agents and your agent will be under the same boss at the office. Blammo--conflict!
If you let this slide, it will cost you more now (for a frig) and again later when you sell the house.
--Andy Asberry--
------Texas-----
Norminn -
Can you please explain to me how exactly the cabinet issue is MY error. I was told from the beginning that it would fit a standard size fridge. And, now when I go to buy a fridge and measure I discover that it lacks 7 inches of clearance.
I am not exactly sure whose fault it is, but I am pretty sure that I do not hold all or even most of the blame.
Kris
It's an opinion, and not well-formed one. Relies on the assumption you had plans to review/approve that show that what is installed is the actual layout on those plans. There's insufficient data to available to asses blame/fault.
I suspect the answer given by the builder was entirely accurate as far sas it went -- a standard width fridge will fit the opening -- as I mentioned earlier, it would be quite surprising if this is a multiple-house development as it appears it must be that the builder actually took sufficient time himself to address the question in more detail than to confirm it's a 34 or 36 or whatever it is wide opening and responding "sure"...
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Okay, so you have a disclosed dual agency. That's legal here, as long as it is disclosed. But since the broker/boss is the one with the contract, the broker/boss the the dual agent.
As an agent, your sales agent cannot tell you that you cannot contact the seller. I mean, what's she going to do, cancel the sale? So look them up in the phone book and call. In all likelyhood, they will fix the problem.
If they don't, check your specs. If the cabinet isn't to specs, call you agent and tell him/her to fix it and to stop dicking around. If they don't, then tell them to refund your deposit and cancel the sale. That will make them gulp hard and fix it. They know that they can get screwed if you delay the closing for a while, so they want it to go quickly. This isn't anything that is too big, so it'll get fixed. The agent will, of course, tell you that you can't do that, yadda, yadda, yadda and is sort of correct. But at that point you acknowlege that, tell the agent that he/she is not propertly representing you and fire the agent. They will want a fee but you tell them that if they give you any sh*t that you'll take them to the licensing board and you can agrue it there as you claim imcompetance, etc. The worst that can happen is that they sue you, but that too is a sticky issue in the world of agency -- especially when you are stating that they are not adequately representing you.
I don't know about your state, but no agent/broker want to go to court or to a licencing body when dual agency is involved. NYS has mandatory disclosures -- all they have to do is miss one thing and they are in trouble.
You also need to breath deep and realize that this isn't emotional. It's just a real estate transaction. If it doesn't go the way you want, then you walk. It migh cost you something but it's better to get what you want. But again, I'd just call the builder.
That's not true. I know folks who even their hindsight isn't 20/20.
(I don't know the details of this case.)
I'm not being overy cynical but you (the OP) is only ASSUMING that the cabinets are in wrong. It could also be that the cabinets are as approved and that the room has been made smaller by misplacement of walls OR (and this is scary) that the house is the wrong size and everything got measured from the outside walls.
While both of these scenarios are unlikely, I thing the OP can't go any farther without reviewing the plans and getting some accurate measurements.
Kris,
I hope you are able to work it out with the builder.
The only advice I have for you is to get a good real estate lawyer to review every document you've signed or piece of paper you've been given.
He/she will be able to tell you exactly where you stand and all the remedies that are available to you. No one here can do that.
From the photo you put up on the net, I would have concerns about the builder's competency: there are tools sitting on a finished surface, an unprotected kitchen countertop -- both the tools and the lack of protection are unprofessional and sloppy. Similarly I note the cabinets are going in after the floor tile has been set == again, work is being performed over a finished surface.
Ken
Careful, counter depth fridges are sometimes WIDER than standard ones (our SubZero was) needing not only a wider space to fit but also a wider DOOR SWING. Make sure you dont trade one problem for another. Measure the actual fridge you re considering...dont go by numbers on some diagram
[snip]
The contractor has it right -- floor tile goes in first, then the cabinets. Floor tile should be under the cabinets and the appliances, for several very good reasons --
And the tools on the countertop is a tempest in a teapot, so to speak. Undoubtedly he's one who would tell Sam Maloof to not set his plane down on the bench w/o laying it on its side... :)
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Hi,
Ouch!
We had a house built and also had the same problem. No magic solution I am afraid. In the end we went for a Counter Dept fridge at about $US
3,000 - ish. It was a while back.Even though we had an architech design the house. The only way I think to effectively have a "Standard" fridge is to have a closet, or some nich in an adjoining room that you can push the fridge into. Most cabinets are 24 inch in dept. Most counter dept fridges are 27 inches. The extra 3 inches is O.K. What you see is just the doors coming out, the body is flush. You need to have the doors sticking a bit out anyway because otherwise you would need a gap on each side of the fridge to allow for door swing clearance. Difficult to explain, but the corners of the doors when used will push out sideways maybe 1/2 to and inch when you open them.
There are fridges that are 100% flush. However even they "cheat" in that they are more than the standard 24 inches. So you effectively waste 3 inches of space behind the cabinets. See Sub Zero.
Best, Mike.
now):
Not every state has escrow.
I've only bought one house, but I don't see how one can count on the title company to represent the buyer's interest, except the one interest that affects the title company, which is establishing good title.
I don't see how or why they would concern themselves with cabinets and refrigerators, which have no effect on whether the house is sold or not.
The title company sends a lawyer or whatever to protect its own interests. He usually takes charge because there is no one there with more training and experience. Even if there is a seller or buyer's lawyer there, I would guess the title company's lawyer takes charge because he is comparitively neutral. The buyer doesn't want a neutral lawyer. He wants one on his side.
That doesn 't necessarily mean -- I don't know -- if he needs to have his lawyer there. If he can't get the kitchen the way it should be, he should as someone said, discuss this with a lawyer in advance. I would think a lawyer near the house. He can fax or email the relevant papers, adn do it on the phone. This can even be cheaper maybe conceivably because there is less likely to be time spent chitchatting, which my mother was wont to do.
The lawyer probably will want to come to the closing, I think, because it earns him income, and because he will be honestly afraid something bad will happen if he is not there, that will be harder to undo than to avoid.
OTOH< I hired a lawyer when I bought my house, and he was terrible, even though I got him through a recommendation of someone I still respect. He gave me a flat price, which I failed to ask enough questions about, and after it was over, and I noticed I had no title insurance, he told me his price didn't include title insurance and I didn't need it. Even though it was a property subdivided only 4 years earlier, and many of the lots were unusual shapes, and mine was one of the most unusual. In fact the subdivision as a whole had had a title dispute with the next subdivisioin, and it turned out we or they had built on the other's property. A deal was worked out where we kept the property our developer had wrongly built on, and we gave them some of our vacant land. We're so packed, I'm surprised we could find vacant land next to their land to give them. OTOH, maybe that's a reason we're so packed. I have no idea how much land was invovled.
The one thing that was dubious at my settlement was whehter we were properly apportioning the oil in the oil tank or the electric bill or something like that. And I noticed this before my lawyer did. I wonder if I hadn't said anything if he would have noticed it at all.
ON a new house I guess that's not an issue, although maybe the builder has to pay the electric bill until the house is acctuallly sold, and maybe that can be 100 dollars or so? I should have been suspicious when the lawyer had his office in a lower income part of town. But he had a recommendation and his first advice on the phone, on an easy but acute topic, sounded good, and was good if the mortgage agent hadn't been a dirtball.
That's true, and he's moving agalin anyhow in what was it, 5 or 10 years. So no matter how bad it is, it's not forever.
Still, it's good to practice doing this right to be better able to wage war, or peace as the case may be, the next time he buys a house.
With all the problems and confusion that there is here, among people who have experience in these matters, many of whom have college degrees and parents who owned their own homes etc. etc., just imagine what it is like for someone who never had any legal or financial experience, who has a job that pays well enough to buy a house, but who's the first in his family to own his own home, etc. He must really feel chewed up and spit out after one of these experiences.
Many not-for-profits throughout the country have homebuyer courses and counseling to assist with just that. They are usually a simple google search or going to hud.gov and looking for certified counselors.
Hmmm, That builder must be a nut. In my time I had 6 houses, a cabin built and never had that problem. I don't remember hearing about it until now. Didn't you go over the blue print B4 building started? Sorry to hear that. Maybe kitchen has to be redone at least partially?
On or about Sat, 16 Jun 2007 17:39:13 -0700 did kris3432 dribble thusly:
[snip]That just strikes me as an incredibly stupid place to design in a fridge.
Here's a quick and dirty take on how I'd do that kitchen, based on what I can tell from the picture:
The corner is replaced with a single unit that has a lazy susan underneath. Maybe something similar on top, too.
The fridge then goes near the end of the wall, under a half cabinet up top. Doing that, you can leave enough space for an especially large fridge, but still put a smaller one in without there seeming to be a huge gap between cabinets. I drew in a bottom-freezer french-door fridge as an example.
I can't really say how reasonable it would be for you to demand a change like that (or however you'd want to do it), since I don't know how many opportunities you had to correct the design before it was built. But I would definitely not be happy with the design in your picture.
Wouldn't she loose counter space at the sink with the fridge there (if the sink is on that side of the kitchen)??
Also, seems like the living room is directly adjacent/behind and one would hear the fridge running vs placed on the far wall ...
-- Oren
..through the use of electrical or duct tape, achieve the configuration in the photo..
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